Sainte Genevieve County, 21-1
- Thread starter Kenny56
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Where is Veers theory on this one? He says when Valle is good Ste Gen is not and when Valle was down SG was good. So what gives now?
1992 they both were State Champs: Valle class 1 and Ste. Gen. class 3 so every 20 years or so it happens both are good. Of course this is a bias opinion.
Class 3 SG (630 students) lost by 29 to a class 1 school (151 students).
Is that a good class 3 school?
Valle has 51 boys on their roster out of appx 75 in school? Is there any other school in the state with that ratio of athletes to non-athletes? The class 3 school has 54 on their roster.
In '92 Valle beat Class 3 State Champ Ste. Genevieve. But that doesn't fit the narrative. Nor should I expect you to be educated on the teams. Ste. Genevieve is night and day at this point in the season while taking on Kenny Weik's/Weilers coaching. Could they beat Valle now? I don't know. But it would be a close game IMO. Valle is that good.
And that is a great ratio, every school should strive for that. Instead of complaining.
Yea we hear about 92 all the time during the playoffs. I'd say that was an outlier. Since then my 'narrative' holds true more often than not.
Sure that's a great ratio. Is there a single public school that's close? Why or why not?
Are ya that simple minded you can't figure out why a private school has a higher participation rate?
Veer...what are you insinuating? You obviously have an opinion...just come out and state your thoughts?
I coached at both schools (Valle as an assistant from 78-80...Ste Gen as HC from 83-88)...so I can offer an informed opinion on the situation at both schools.
Does Valle cheat? Absolutely not...every kid on that roster is home grown in Ste. Genevieve County.
The County is 80-90% Catholic so most kids at Ste. Gen. are Catholic too and some even went to Catholic schools through 8th grade.
I overheard a jealous Coach one year at the Show Me Bowl say, "No wonder Valle is good..their players come from all over...I hear half their team is from St. Louis or Cape and several from accross the River in Illinois." I stepped in and asked where he got his facts....he said everybody knows as it's 'common knowledge'.
This kind of talk is such BS...Valle kids come from Ste. Gen. County.
Do private schools have a little advantage? Sure they do...they have a higher percentage of student body participation in everything.
They have very little dead weight riff-raff in their student body. Nearly ALL the parents are caring and supportive whereas as in public schools there can be lots of kids and parents you never see at any extra cirricular activities.
That being said...Valle has both a great tradition and excellent Coaching right now. Their talent is very good...but not as overwhelming as some might think. Their players have a great commitment and outstanding work ethic. They get most of the good athletes out for football and they have a great weight program. Their Coaches work really hard and they run a great system.
Can the same thing be done in a public school? Absolutely...look at Lamar...look at Webb City. Why does no one question how they always seem to have such great athletes and why they never seem to have a down year?
Ste. Genevieve is a very good football town...very blue collar, hard working...and passionate about their HS football. The kids at both schools tend to be tough, aggressive, and dedicated to football...it's important to the kids, parents, and most of the fans in town and throughout the County.
When I was at Valle we had lost to Ste. Gen. for several years in a row...we finally turned the corner my last year there and beat Ste. Gen. for the first time in quite a few years.
When I was at Ste. Gen. I had the same frustrations trying to beat the "Valle Machine" and I was not very successfull (one win in six trys)...even though we were a playoff team 3 of my last 4 years.
I would like to make some excuses but there were none to be had. I knew the Valle kids and I knew the Coaches even better...they were doing nothing illegal and we just had to work harder and get better.
Here is the thing with Valle (and the same thing can probably be said for Lamar and Webb City and other great programs)...they all obviously have good athletes...and great tradition. They probaly outwork 95% of the teams, they have GREAT weight programs and they have consistency in everything they do through out the program.
They probably ARE better than most of the teams they play because they get all the talent out and all that talent has been well developed and knows how to win and EXPECTS to win everytime they step on the field.
However, often times...the game is won before kick-off because they are in the opponents heads so much (because of the tradition)...that the opponent may be down two touchdowns before their players and Coaches realize "hey...maybe we could have played with those guys?"
Some of the Ste Gen fans used to say that I "didn't WANT to beat Valle bad enought" when I was HC for the Dragons because I used to coach at Valle. Nothing could have been further from the truth. In reality looking back...I wanted to win TOO MUCH and tried too hard and over coached for that game. Usually I felt compelled to try new plays/schemes/strategies because I wanted to win so bad and didn't trust that we could be good enough to just line up toe-to-toe with them and just "play football."
You want to beat Valle, Lamar, or Webb City? You have to out hit, block, and tackle them for 48 minutes...and you have to make your kids BELIEVE that they can beat them. That is hard to do...but that is what you have to do...plain and simple.
Look at ANY great program...you will find the same things....Great coaching...and CONSISTENCY in the staff....a great off-season program...and excitement and enthusiasm for the sport through out the team, school, and community.
And YES...Kenny Weik is doing a great job at Ste. Gen. following up the legendary HOF Coach Bob Stolzer.
Someday he will beat Valle beacuse he is really good and he is driven to do so...but it will be tough because Judd Naeger is one of the best in the business.
You can just ask Coach Weik if Valle cheats or does anything shady or underhanded....or ask Bob Stolzer for that matter. I am quite sure of the answer you'll get...from guys who really know first hand.
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Wow post of the year Coach!
I wanted nothing more than to crush Valles hopes and dreams when I played. And every year I played we did. But it was done after that. I grew up with the guys playing basketball and baseball. The same guys that I run into picking up our kids from daycare. Or have a beer with at the Midway etc.
I get the jealousy, I really do. Same thing that happened at Platte County or Harrisonville, and of course Webb City. But it makes people like veer just look like tiny sad little people, it really does.
Coach Kenny Weik is a coach I am thankful we have as a Ste. Gen fan and alumn. And Weiler deserves a mention in the HOF at some point.
Just don't ask this green and blue household where our boy will be going to school, it's a sore subject....ha
I wanted nothing more than to crush Valles hopes and dreams when I played. And every year I played we did. But it was done after that. I grew up with the guys playing basketball and baseball. The same guys that I run into picking up our kids from daycare. Or have a beer with at the Midway etc.
I get the jealousy, I really do. Same thing that happened at Platte County or Harrisonville, and of course Webb City. But it makes people like veer just look like tiny sad little people, it really does.
Coach Kenny Weik is a coach I am thankful we have as a Ste. Gen fan and alumn. And Weiler deserves a mention in the HOF at some point.
Just don't ask this green and blue household where our boy will be going to school, it's a sore subject....ha
I have never said Valle cheats or recruits. All i've said is they have an advantage very few other class 1 schools have. That advantage coupled with a great coach makes them virtually unbeatable in class 1. Anyone who thinks Mark Twain (or any other class 1 school) will beat them this year (above average Valle team) hasn'y been on the other side before. Thayer and Skyline are VERY good but it won't be enough.
Just imagine if Marionville or Miller were able to get players from the entire county of Lawrence. If they could get some of the better players from Aurora or Mt. Vernon, to go along with the players they have, they would both be a force in Class 1 also. Being able to have the entire county of Ste. Genevieve to select their players from is a huge advantage. It doesn't matter if they recruit outside of the county or not, they have a bigger area to select their athletes from than any other Class 1 team in the state. Having a good coach and weight program just makes them that more impressive.
None in rural areas.
Valle also server St. Francois county IIRC. Least that's what their website said.
Nobody will change their mind on this. The kennys can't (or don't want to)understand why having the pick of the litter and staying in the smallest class might be an advantage. Has anyone on here accused Valle of recruiting? Please link those posts or shut up about it. Valle has a great coaching staff and kids that work their tails off but so do a bunch of other class 1 programs.
Has any Valle coach gone on to great success at a public school program? You'd think it'd happen due to the money difference. Since there's no advantage there.
Since 92, how many years has SG and Valle had concurrent success?
Does Ste. Genevieve count as public school success? Stolzer/Weiler. Bacon did well in public school as well.(It's not like either of these schools have gone through a lot of Coaches)
Do you expect both schools to be dominant at the same time all the time? Late 80's early 90's they both were really good. Not so much late 90's early 2000's. Ste. Gen. isn't going anywhere. And neither is Valle. So pay attention the next few years. The decline in Valle happened around the same time a coaching change occurred. But that doesn't calculate into your narrative either.
Do you expect both schools to be dominant at the same time all the time? Late 80's early 90's they both were really good. Not so much late 90's early 2000's. Ste. Gen. isn't going anywhere. And neither is Valle. So pay attention the next few years. The decline in Valle happened around the same time a coaching change occurred. But that doesn't calculate into your narrative either.
Veer, don't mean to get into a pissing match but here are some responses to your questions:
1) Valle could draw kids from St. Francios County, Perry County, Jefferson County, or any other County but they do not have in school or on the football roster.
2) EVERY private school has an advantage by having a more select group of kids than your typical public school, that is why the 1.35 multiplyer is in place.
Is this enough to level the playing field? Who can say. There are certainly a lot of smaller private schools that don't have great football....and what penalty is this to the Class-6 private schools who are already in the largest class anyway?
3) As to your highlighted question above, HOF Coach Bob Stolzer and Bob Weiler both coached at Valle early in their careers and both left and went across town to Ste. Genevieve public and had great success there together. At one point they had the football-success-needle turned greatly in favor of the Dragons over the Warriors...winning several games straight in that rivalry. Many Valle fans wanted to drop the annual rivalry saying that it was no longer a fair match since Valle's enrollment dropped from about 350 in the 80's down to to the 130 range it is currently. The reason Valle dropped? Instabilty and constant turn over in the Valle Coaching staff. When Valle Alum Judd Naeger took the reins credit him with keeping the Valle/Ste.Gen. rivalry going...he said they they needed to keep playing and it was up to him and the boys to elevate their program up to Ste. Gen's level....which he certainly did over time.
I left Valle after three years and had decent success at three public schools after leaving (Santa Fe, Ste. Gen Public, and Southern Cal HS in Lake City, IA...progressively a little better at each stop as I got older, wiser, and more experienced after a lot of trial-and-error.
Does Valle have some advantages over the typical class 1 public school? Sure they do...but like I have stated there are several smaller private schools that are not football or athletic jugernauts.
And like I have stated in a previous thread...there are quite of few public schools that are having similar success in football (Lamar and Webb City...to a slighty lesser degree Maryville, Centralia, Blair Oaks have been consistently very good for a number of years...and I am sure there are several other examples
Is it easier to develop a dynasty at a private school? Probably. Can it be done at a public school? Sure it can...that is my point.
It all comes down to having the right Coach, the right administrative support, and the right football community culture with a whole student body of boys (and their families) buying in as to what it takes to be consistently successful.
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lamar would kick the dog piss out of both of those teams anyway. Beat valle's a.. and slap st. gen
I laughed as I was walking out of the restroom during halftime of a webb city game a few back vs. St. Mary's. A st. Mary's fan was complaning saying Webb city is good because they recruit. This coming from a private school. I've seen and heard it about any school that is superior in a sport. I guess if it makes you feel better about yourself, blame something or someone. It can't be tat they work harder or have better coaching
No doubt. They would beat 90% of the teams in this state this year.
Lamar has a proud history of excellence..............................never mind just went back and looked.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
I believe will find out for sure next year. Isn't Lamar and Valle playing a home and home the next two years?
So those public schools won 5 straight and 6 of 8? Or anything CLOSE to that?Why or why not?
Veer...no the assitant coaches who left Valle have not had that kind of success. But Bob Stolzer who went to Ste. Gen. public was a Hall-of-Famer and his teams had far more success at Ste. Gen. than any of his teams ever did at Valle. I had a pretty good run at a public school the last 5 years of my own career up at Southern Cal HS in Lake City, IA....and we had to go through some really good private schools (Algona Bishop Garrigan and Council Bluffs St. Albert) in the playoffs
I have already admitted that Valle and every private schools have some advantages..that is why in Missouri they have the 1.35 multiplyer (which they DON'T have in Iowa by the way...not sure about Kansas, Illinois, Arkansas, etc).
And my additional point is that SOME public schools have had VERY similar success to Valle's...and I repeatedly have given Webb City and Lamar as examples.
So I am not really sure what the point is of our discussion? Could Valle's Judd Naeger, Lamar's Coach Bailey, and Webb City's Coach Roderique go to just ANY school and duplicate the success they are having at their current schools? Maybe not...but where ever they went...I have a feeling they would develop really good teams and programs.
Is Valle only good because they are a "rural" private school as you suggest? No...if so...why doesn't their neighboring rivals to the North (St. Pius of Festus) and the South (St. Vincent of Perryville) have similar success? And why has Valle had lulls when they were not very good during times of a lot of Coaching turnover?
Are Naeger, Bailey, and Roderique only good because they are at great schools? No...they are all three great HS football Coaches.
Could they all three duplicate the success they are currently having at another school? They'd all be very successfull IMO...but having the same level of success somewhere else would be tough.
You and I both know that there some great football communities around the state...there are some that are historically horrible...and a whole lot in between.
I guess what strikes a nerve with me is when people attack Valle...because despite the advantages they have (as a private school)...they are doing it the right way with hard work and home grown kids.
They are not like a John Burroughs who graduates a Zeke Elliot...and then gets a "super talented move-in from the East Coast like John Molten the very next year.
Valle is not like some of the private schools in the Cities who can "cherry pick" the very best talent from the JFL's and Matthew's Dickey teams in a large metropolitan area...and even scholarship a few of them.
What Valle has done is amazing. Does being a private school help? Sure...but there is way more to it than that....Judd Naeger and his assistant coaches deserve a lot of credit.
What Webb City and Lamar have done is equally amazing. Are those public school communities pretty special? Obviously so...there is a GREAT HS football culture at all three places...but the Coaches at each of those schools also deserve a lot of the credit.
I am giving examples of three great programs...one private and two public...so what are we arguing about?
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We agree on more things than we disagree. It takes a special combination to have a run like that. Complete buy-in, competent coaches that motivate and sheer talent level.
Valle doesn't cherry pick but the public school didn't make it out of districts again. And it's not like class 3 over there is murderers row.
Kenny isn't impressed by Lamar's history. I hope the Lamar coaches noted that.
Since no head coaches have gone from Valle to any great success elsewhere is it the kids? I'm sure they work hard and all..but were those kids just gone when valle was bad? I've coached at a few places and seen a lot..bad and good.
Talent wins. Even without good coaches you win some games . With good coaches it becomes special. Good coaching CAN overcome talent deficit and we all agree valle is well coached. They're also major talented and that talent gets DEVELOPED. So many places don't develop that talent and that's where I think valle, webb, kearney, harrisonville etc. are doing the right thing. I'm sure you can spot the good ones a mile away.
I don't think valle 'recruits' per se like a rockhurst or JB. I do think the good kids around there go to valle now to play football.
And like someone else posted, if you let every class 1 school pull from their whole county(and be able to limit enrollment) you're gonna have some tailkickers on the teams that have quality coaching staffs.
fair enough, Veer...but Valle has never had a Division I kid and has had very few Division II kids or even D-III/NAIA kids as far as college players.
Don't get me wrong...they have really good HS talent for a class I school...but probabably not to the degree that some people think.
Westran has two kids at Mizzou (Tyler Hunt and Zane Jacoby), Penny has the RB at Wyoming, Santa Fe had Gregory at Mizzou, Northwestern/Hughesville had Tim Barnes at Mizzou/Rams...There are small schools who have had D-I type kids...but there never has been one at Valle.
Now that being said...arguably the most decorated college player in Valle History, QB Jeremy Hoog (who was very good at SMS in the mid 90's link: https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1P2-32894884/former-valle-star-reaches-early-peak-in-smsu-s-opener) has a Junior High aged son who is reportedly already about 6'2" and super athletic...so maybe he can be the first in a couple of years.
All of those examples were walk ons... Valle has had plenty of kids that COULD play at the D1 level (Tyler Hunt style). I get the point you're making, and don't completely disagree, but I think you're slightly underselling the type of players Valle has had.
I think the biggest difference is on the line of scrimmage. I played offensive line in the MIAA and i have watched MANY offensive lineman from Valle that had the talent to play D2, but with the way recruiting works now, weren't tall enough to get a scholarship out of High School.
Jeremy's boy really likes basketball and is pretty good...Is that even allowed in SG County??
As a former Lead Belter I am joking on this as my son played basketball against and with young Hoog before we moved.
I consider myself a pretty normal but passionate high school football fan.The 2 main advantages that I see private schools have is the ability to control their enrollment numbers, and their ability to accept students from outside their normal school district. Hence, the 1.35 multiplier. I simply don't get the animosity. Of course students at a private school are much more likely to be from families that encourage them to be doers as opposed to watchers and will be more involved in school activities whatever they are. I don't see why the rest of us should think that is so horrible.
Southern Cal Iowa? Please tell me you didn't have to deal with any Monahans on your teams (my in-laws).
Actually you may not have based on their ages.
