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Republicans need to stop targeting patients and start targeting providers

Gubba Bump Shrimp

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
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“The old order changeth,” Tennyson wrote, “yielding place to new.”

For three-quarters of a century, Americans have been debating whether the state should guarantee health coverage for all. With the passage of the Affordable Care Act, the “yes” side seemed at last to have prevailed, or nearly so. Obamacare is not quite a universal health-care program, but it shifted the U.S. closer to that outcome.

For seven years, Republicans have vowed to shift it back. Now the moment for reversal has arrived. If Paul Ryan’s version of health-care reform prevails, the speaker will have accomplished something that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher never could: Repeal a fully operational social-insurance program.

But it looks increasingly unlikely that Ryan will prevail. Monday’s Congressional Budget Office estimate that 14 million Americans will lose coverage in the first year after repeal—with 7 more to lose it just in time for the 2020 presidential election—must spread panic among already nervous Republicans. Paul Ryan, a true believer, accepts that toll as the price of principle. It seems doubtful that very many other Republican officeholders will long agree.

Here’s what he told CBS’s John Dickerson on Sunday, March 12.

Dickerson: How many people are going to lose coverage under this new—

Ryan: I can’t answer that question. It’s up to people. Here—here’s the premise of your question. Are you going to stop mandating people buy health insurance? People are going to do what they want to do with their lives because we believe in individual freedom in this country. So the question is, are we providing a system where people have access to health insurance if they choose to do so? And the answer is yes. But are we going to have some nice looking spreadsheet that says we, the government of the American—of the United States are going to make people buy something and, therefore, they’re all going to buy it? No. That’s the fatal conceit of Obamacare in the first place.

So it’s not our job to make people do something that they don’t want to do. It is our job to have a system where people can get universal access to affordable coverage if they choose to do so or not. That’s what we’re going to be accomplishing.

Ryan’s forthright remarks reveal the assumptions on which his policy is founded. Health-care coverage, his comments suggest, is a good that comes with a cost primarily borne by the covered individual or family. If individuals or families assesses that the good is not worth the cost, then they should be free to forgo the coverage. If that decision should ruin them financially—or expose them to life-threatening medical risk—then that is the price of freedom. As Ayn Rand wrote in The Virtue of Selfishness: “No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation , an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man.” And what is a mandate but an unchosen obligation?

But Ryan’s health-care plan is encountering resistance—and, most paradoxically, the fiercest resistance from those who might be expected most to support him. Lose just three votes in the Senate, and the project stalls—maybe crashes. Despite the Republican grip on all the elected branches of government, that outcome must be accounted a real possibility, and more than a possibility.

What then?

The basis of the Republican opposition to Obamacare has gradually shifted over the past seven years. Ryan’s position—let people go uninsured if they will not or cannot pay the price of insurance—has become increasingly rare, or at least increasingly rarely articulated. Donald Trump won the Republican nomination and the presidency by promising more coverage, not less. Trump did it again at his health-care photo op on Monday: “You’ll see rates go down, down, down, and you’ll see plans go up, up, up,” he said. “You’ll have a lot of choices. You’ll have plans that nobody’s even thinking of today. They will have plans that today nobody has even thought about because the market’s going to import that with millions and millions of people wanting health care.”

Call it hucksterism and flimflam, but it’s hucksterism and flimflam that has consequences. A pair of Pew surveys in March 2016 and January 2017 found that Trump’s rhetoric has evoked a powerful response:

The belief that the government has a responsibility to ensure health coverage has increased across many groups over the past year, but the rise has been particularly striking among lower- and middle-income Republicans.

Thus, while most Republicans still reject the idea that government should ensure health coverage for all, 52 percent of Republicans with incomes below $30,000 now say that it should. Among middle-income Republicans—earning $30,000 to $75,000—the share who favor a government guarantee has jumped 20 points in less than 12 months, to 34 percent.

Even those Republicans who do not accept the principle of a government guarantee increasingly accept the practice. The uninsurance rate among non-elderly whites has dropped by almost five points since the Affordable Care Act went into effect. The declines among other groups have been steeper in percentage terms, but in absolute numbers, more poor whites gained coverage under the ACA than did any other group: almost 9 million non-elderly adults as of mid-2016. If they voted in November, they likely voted for Trump.

No wonder that Republican governors and senators, who must answer to state-wide electorates, sound increasingly queasy when they talk about ACA repeal and its Ryancare replacement. I wrote about Rand Paul last week, but he’s now seconded by many more. Those skeptics’ criticism seems increasingly based on the political risk of withdrawing coverage from those who have relied on it—and of course the House plan will withdraw coverage anywhere from millions. As they reject that risk as too hazardous, Republicans take the belated final steps on the road to universality.

And it is high time—past time!—they did so. Republicans have had too many competing goals in health-care reform. They have wanted to lower costs (to free fiscal room for tax cuts and military spending), but also to avoid tangling with entrenched health-care interests, which have decisively favored Republicans in recent years. Post-Obamacare, as before, the United States remains an outlier among advanced nations both in its absolute spending on health care and in that spending’s rate of growth. Even looking only at government expenditures, the U.S. spends a larger share of income on health care than Switzerland and Canada. That money does not buy better outcomes: if anything U.S. health-care outcomes are deteriorating.

What that money has bought is a huge and costly health sector. In 2015, Forbes rated heath technology as the single most profitable industry group in the nation, featuring a fat 21 percent margin. Loathe to tangle with providers, Republicans have fixed their hopes for cost reduction on customers. “Patient-centered medicine” sought to transform the user of health-care services as the system’s decisive cost-controller. Confronted with the full cost of medicine, the patient would consume care more prudently—or forgo it altogether.

That hope is listing badly. When and if it finally sinks, Republicans may notice something else. The other advanced countries with universal coverage manage to buy significantly better outcomes at the expense of 11 or 12 percent of GDP instead of America’s 16 percent.

That extra increment of GDP could pay for a lot of military spending and a lot of tax cuts. Once politics has eliminated coverage reduction as a means of forcing economy, other possibilities open before a center-right party—and indeed have opened for center-right parties across the rest of the English-speaking world.

Perversely, the effort to keep government out of health care has empowered health care to consume more and more government dollars. Where government has been deployed more effectively than in the United States, health care has consumed less.

The long battle to repeal Obamacare has diverted American conservatives from their true heath-care work. The sputtering out of that battle in a completely self-inflicted failure may at last free Republicans from a doomed endeavor and liberate them to undertake the work that the country most needs from them: protecting productive enterprise and military spending from the undisciplined voracity of a health-care industry that takes too much and delivers too little.
 
“The old order changeth,” Tennyson wrote, “yielding place to new.”

For three-quarters of a century, Americans have been debating whether the state should guarantee health coverage for all. With the passage of the Affordable Care Act, the “yes” side seemed at last to have prevailed, or nearly so. Obamacare is not quite a universal health-care program, but it shifted the U.S. closer to that outcome.

For seven years, Republicans have vowed to shift it back. Now the moment for reversal has arrived. If Paul Ryan’s version of health-care reform prevails, the speaker will have accomplished something that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher never could: Repeal a fully operational social-insurance program.

But it looks increasingly unlikely that Ryan will prevail. Monday’s Congressional Budget Office estimate that 14 million Americans will lose coverage in the first year after repeal—with 7 more to lose it just in time for the 2020 presidential election—must spread panic among already nervous Republicans. Paul Ryan, a true believer, accepts that toll as the price of principle. It seems doubtful that very many other Republican officeholders will long agree.

Here’s what he told CBS’s John Dickerson on Sunday, March 12.

Dickerson: How many people are going to lose coverage under this new—

Ryan: I can’t answer that question. It’s up to people. Here—here’s the premise of your question. Are you going to stop mandating people buy health insurance? People are going to do what they want to do with their lives because we believe in individual freedom in this country. So the question is, are we providing a system where people have access to health insurance if they choose to do so? And the answer is yes. But are we going to have some nice looking spreadsheet that says we, the government of the American—of the United States are going to make people buy something and, therefore, they’re all going to buy it? No. That’s the fatal conceit of Obamacare in the first place.

So it’s not our job to make people do something that they don’t want to do. It is our job to have a system where people can get universal access to affordable coverage if they choose to do so or not. That’s what we’re going to be accomplishing.

Ryan’s forthright remarks reveal the assumptions on which his policy is founded. Health-care coverage, his comments suggest, is a good that comes with a cost primarily borne by the covered individual or family. If individuals or families assesses that the good is not worth the cost, then they should be free to forgo the coverage. If that decision should ruin them financially—or expose them to life-threatening medical risk—then that is the price of freedom. As Ayn Rand wrote in The Virtue of Selfishness: “No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation , an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man.” And what is a mandate but an unchosen obligation?

But Ryan’s health-care plan is encountering resistance—and, most paradoxically, the fiercest resistance from those who might be expected most to support him. Lose just three votes in the Senate, and the project stalls—maybe crashes. Despite the Republican grip on all the elected branches of government, that outcome must be accounted a real possibility, and more than a possibility.

What then?

The basis of the Republican opposition to Obamacare has gradually shifted over the past seven years. Ryan’s position—let people go uninsured if they will not or cannot pay the price of insurance—has become increasingly rare, or at least increasingly rarely articulated. Donald Trump won the Republican nomination and the presidency by promising more coverage, not less. Trump did it again at his health-care photo op on Monday: “You’ll see rates go down, down, down, and you’ll see plans go up, up, up,” he said. “You’ll have a lot of choices. You’ll have plans that nobody’s even thinking of today. They will have plans that today nobody has even thought about because the market’s going to import that with millions and millions of people wanting health care.”

Call it hucksterism and flimflam, but it’s hucksterism and flimflam that has consequences. A pair of Pew surveys in March 2016 and January 2017 found that Trump’s rhetoric has evoked a powerful response:

The belief that the government has a responsibility to ensure health coverage has increased across many groups over the past year, but the rise has been particularly striking among lower- and middle-income Republicans.

Thus, while most Republicans still reject the idea that government should ensure health coverage for all, 52 percent of Republicans with incomes below $30,000 now say that it should. Among middle-income Republicans—earning $30,000 to $75,000—the share who favor a government guarantee has jumped 20 points in less than 12 months, to 34 percent.

Even those Republicans who do not accept the principle of a government guarantee increasingly accept the practice. The uninsurance rate among non-elderly whites has dropped by almost five points since the Affordable Care Act went into effect. The declines among other groups have been steeper in percentage terms, but in absolute numbers, more poor whites gained coverage under the ACA than did any other group: almost 9 million non-elderly adults as of mid-2016. If they voted in November, they likely voted for Trump.

No wonder that Republican governors and senators, who must answer to state-wide electorates, sound increasingly queasy when they talk about ACA repeal and its Ryancare replacement. I wrote about Rand Paul last week, but he’s now seconded by many more. Those skeptics’ criticism seems increasingly based on the political risk of withdrawing coverage from those who have relied on it—and of course the House plan will withdraw coverage anywhere from millions. As they reject that risk as too hazardous, Republicans take the belated final steps on the road to universality.

And it is high time—past time!—they did so. Republicans have had too many competing goals in health-care reform. They have wanted to lower costs (to free fiscal room for tax cuts and military spending), but also to avoid tangling with entrenched health-care interests, which have decisively favored Republicans in recent years. Post-Obamacare, as before, the United States remains an outlier among advanced nations both in its absolute spending on health care and in that spending’s rate of growth. Even looking only at government expenditures, the U.S. spends a larger share of income on health care than Switzerland and Canada. That money does not buy better outcomes: if anything U.S. health-care outcomes are deteriorating.

What that money has bought is a huge and costly health sector. In 2015, Forbes rated heath technology as the single most profitable industry group in the nation, featuring a fat 21 percent margin. Loathe to tangle with providers, Republicans have fixed their hopes for cost reduction on customers. “Patient-centered medicine” sought to transform the user of health-care services as the system’s decisive cost-controller. Confronted with the full cost of medicine, the patient would consume care more prudently—or forgo it altogether.

That hope is listing badly. When and if it finally sinks, Republicans may notice something else. The other advanced countries with universal coverage manage to buy significantly better outcomes at the expense of 11 or 12 percent of GDP instead of America’s 16 percent.

That extra increment of GDP could pay for a lot of military spending and a lot of tax cuts. Once politics has eliminated coverage reduction as a means of forcing economy, other possibilities open before a center-right party—and indeed have opened for center-right parties across the rest of the English-speaking world.

Perversely, the effort to keep government out of health care has empowered health care to consume more and more government dollars. Where government has been deployed more effectively than in the United States, health care has consumed less.

The long battle to repeal Obamacare has diverted American conservatives from their true heath-care work. The sputtering out of that battle in a completely self-inflicted failure may at last free Republicans from a doomed endeavor and liberate them to undertake the work that the country most needs from them: protecting productive enterprise and military spending from the undisciplined voracity of a health-care industry that takes too much and delivers too little.
Why didn't the Democrats failed Obamacare target Providers??
 
“The old order changeth,” Tennyson wrote, “yielding place to new.”

For three-quarters of a century, Americans have been debating whether the state should guarantee health coverage for all. With the passage of the Affordable Care Act, the “yes” side seemed at last to have prevailed, or nearly so. Obamacare is not quite a universal health-care program, but it shifted the U.S. closer to that outcome.

For seven years, Republicans have vowed to shift it back. Now the moment for reversal has arrived. If Paul Ryan’s version of health-care reform prevails, the speaker will have accomplished something that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher never could: Repeal a fully operational social-insurance program.

But it looks increasingly unlikely that Ryan will prevail. Monday’s Congressional Budget Office estimate that 14 million Americans will lose coverage in the first year after repeal—with 7 more to lose it just in time for the 2020 presidential election—must spread panic among already nervous Republicans. Paul Ryan, a true believer, accepts that toll as the price of principle. It seems doubtful that very many other Republican officeholders will long agree.

Here’s what he told CBS’s John Dickerson on Sunday, March 12.

Dickerson: How many people are going to lose coverage under this new—

Ryan: I can’t answer that question. It’s up to people. Here—here’s the premise of your question. Are you going to stop mandating people buy health insurance? People are going to do what they want to do with their lives because we believe in individual freedom in this country. So the question is, are we providing a system where people have access to health insurance if they choose to do so? And the answer is yes. But are we going to have some nice looking spreadsheet that says we, the government of the American—of the United States are going to make people buy something and, therefore, they’re all going to buy it? No. That’s the fatal conceit of Obamacare in the first place.

So it’s not our job to make people do something that they don’t want to do. It is our job to have a system where people can get universal access to affordable coverage if they choose to do so or not. That’s what we’re going to be accomplishing.

Ryan’s forthright remarks reveal the assumptions on which his policy is founded. Health-care coverage, his comments suggest, is a good that comes with a cost primarily borne by the covered individual or family. If individuals or families assesses that the good is not worth the cost, then they should be free to forgo the coverage. If that decision should ruin them financially—or expose them to life-threatening medical risk—then that is the price of freedom. As Ayn Rand wrote in The Virtue of Selfishness: “No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation , an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man.” And what is a mandate but an unchosen obligation?

But Ryan’s health-care plan is encountering resistance—and, most paradoxically, the fiercest resistance from those who might be expected most to support him. Lose just three votes in the Senate, and the project stalls—maybe crashes. Despite the Republican grip on all the elected branches of government, that outcome must be accounted a real possibility, and more than a possibility.

What then?

The basis of the Republican opposition to Obamacare has gradually shifted over the past seven years. Ryan’s position—let people go uninsured if they will not or cannot pay the price of insurance—has become increasingly rare, or at least increasingly rarely articulated. Donald Trump won the Republican nomination and the presidency by promising more coverage, not less. Trump did it again at his health-care photo op on Monday: “You’ll see rates go down, down, down, and you’ll see plans go up, up, up,” he said. “You’ll have a lot of choices. You’ll have plans that nobody’s even thinking of today. They will have plans that today nobody has even thought about because the market’s going to import that with millions and millions of people wanting health care.”

Call it hucksterism and flimflam, but it’s hucksterism and flimflam that has consequences. A pair of Pew surveys in March 2016 and January 2017 found that Trump’s rhetoric has evoked a powerful response:

The belief that the government has a responsibility to ensure health coverage has increased across many groups over the past year, but the rise has been particularly striking among lower- and middle-income Republicans.

Thus, while most Republicans still reject the idea that government should ensure health coverage for all, 52 percent of Republicans with incomes below $30,000 now say that it should. Among middle-income Republicans—earning $30,000 to $75,000—the share who favor a government guarantee has jumped 20 points in less than 12 months, to 34 percent.

Even those Republicans who do not accept the principle of a government guarantee increasingly accept the practice. The uninsurance rate among non-elderly whites has dropped by almost five points since the Affordable Care Act went into effect. The declines among other groups have been steeper in percentage terms, but in absolute numbers, more poor whites gained coverage under the ACA than did any other group: almost 9 million non-elderly adults as of mid-2016. If they voted in November, they likely voted for Trump.

No wonder that Republican governors and senators, who must answer to state-wide electorates, sound increasingly queasy when they talk about ACA repeal and its Ryancare replacement. I wrote about Rand Paul last week, but he’s now seconded by many more. Those skeptics’ criticism seems increasingly based on the political risk of withdrawing coverage from those who have relied on it—and of course the House plan will withdraw coverage anywhere from millions. As they reject that risk as too hazardous, Republicans take the belated final steps on the road to universality.

And it is high time—past time!—they did so. Republicans have had too many competing goals in health-care reform. They have wanted to lower costs (to free fiscal room for tax cuts and military spending), but also to avoid tangling with entrenched health-care interests, which have decisively favored Republicans in recent years. Post-Obamacare, as before, the United States remains an outlier among advanced nations both in its absolute spending on health care and in that spending’s rate of growth. Even looking only at government expenditures, the U.S. spends a larger share of income on health care than Switzerland and Canada. That money does not buy better outcomes: if anything U.S. health-care outcomes are deteriorating.

What that money has bought is a huge and costly health sector. In 2015, Forbes rated heath technology as the single most profitable industry group in the nation, featuring a fat 21 percent margin. Loathe to tangle with providers, Republicans have fixed their hopes for cost reduction on customers. “Patient-centered medicine” sought to transform the user of health-care services as the system’s decisive cost-controller. Confronted with the full cost of medicine, the patient would consume care more prudently—or forgo it altogether.

That hope is listing badly. When and if it finally sinks, Republicans may notice something else. The other advanced countries with universal coverage manage to buy significantly better outcomes at the expense of 11 or 12 percent of GDP instead of America’s 16 percent.

That extra increment of GDP could pay for a lot of military spending and a lot of tax cuts. Once politics has eliminated coverage reduction as a means of forcing economy, other possibilities open before a center-right party—and indeed have opened for center-right parties across the rest of the English-speaking world.

Perversely, the effort to keep government out of health care has empowered health care to consume more and more government dollars. Where government has been deployed more effectively than in the United States, health care has consumed less.

The long battle to repeal Obamacare has diverted American conservatives from their true heath-care work. The sputtering out of that battle in a completely self-inflicted failure may at last free Republicans from a doomed endeavor and liberate them to undertake the work that the country most needs from them: protecting productive enterprise and military spending from the undisciplined voracity of a health-care industry that takes too much and delivers too little.
Is there any way you could just stop posting irrelevant information?
 
Why aren't Republicans trying to improve health coverage?

Why does Paul Ryan hate poor people?

Is this really the best they can come up with after complaining about ACA for 7 years?
Exactly what is "health coverage"

Obamacare must be replaced and this is s good start

The massive task is driving down the cost of healthcare to actually make it affordable. We spend almost twice what other countries do on healthcare with basically the same results. We need to cap what providers can charge and put an end to it
 
They are and will.
He doesn't.
No.
The core goal of the bill as structured is to give a tax cut to rich people that is funded by reductions in subsidies for health care. The reforms otherwise are modest and don't address the core issues associated with providing care in the US
 
Exactly what is "health coverage"

Obamacare must be replaced and this is s good start

The massive task is driving down the cost of healthcare to actually make it affordable. We spend almost twice what other countries do on healthcare with basically the same results. We need to cap what providers can charge and put an end to it
This is the real problem, yes
 
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Again,,,,,,,,they have access to Health CARE,,,,they didn't have Insurance

Many millions didn't want insurance but were forced to buy it.
They have access to standard health care in the same way that I have access to a Ferrari. That's not a meaningful point. Health care is not affordable for tens of millions of Americans. And it's very expensive for those who can afford it.
 
I respect your effort Neutron but you are dealing with people who WANT the ER overrun with uninsured people. Insane.

Ryan has three goals with this immediate bill. 1. Get rid of the health Ins. mandate. 2. Cut taxes on the rich. 3. Begin his journey to gut Medicaid and Medicare with SS to follow. Has nothing to do with actual health care.
 
I respect your effort Neutron but you are dealing with people who WANT the ER overrun with uninsured people. Insane.

Ryan has three goals with this immediate bill. 1. Get rid of the health Ins. mandate. 2. Cut taxes on the rich. 3. Begin his journey to gut Medicaid and Medicare with SS to follow. Has nothing to do with actual health care.
You left out, OCA was built to fail. The ultimate goal is universal health care, with a single pay system. Such a tard.
 
Is there any way you can just stop posting? There is a healthcare debate to be had, in no way is any of this irrelevant.

Don't want to burst your bubble but this debate was settled at the polling booths.

From this point forward the lying liberal media and incompetent politicians are in charge of our future.

Though "fun" to spare about, this site is nothing more than "The View" for men.
 
You do understand popular vote means nothing. Trump unlike Clinton played the game to win , he didn't waste time in California because he knew it was impossible to win there . He spent time and money in the rust belt where he knew Clinton was vulnerable.

Leaving California out, Trump won the popular vote in the other 49 states. Clinton like her supporters now don't matter
 
Why does everybody keep saying Healthcare, we have always had healthcare and don't add affordable in front of it...just because you add insurance still does not change the fact that healthcare cost are out of control!! If anybody thinks this election was a referendum on health care you are crazy, it was on the affordability of healthcare and not because of insurance that is a sad mistake, people are tired of Hospitals charging a butt load for simple care and getting a lot less. People are tired of having health insurance and still having to pay up to $100 out of pocket for a doctor to give you a simple antibiotic and a 5 minute visit, then being charged hundreds of dollars for that antibiotic. This was about the middle class and middle America feeling like the recovery has left them behind and healthcare cost continuing to go up and taking more and more of what little they earn, we were promised if passed that Obamacare would drive down those cost, why because more people would have insurance and hospitals would not have as big of loses, it was a bill of goods. Sure we have been told that without Obamacare healthcare cost would go up more, but that is not what we were told we were told they would go down and they really should be going down as health providers should be writing off less loses with over 25 million now having insurance??
Sure people want health insurance but what they really want, and what they think they want are two different things we want affordable healthcare not a band aid called insurance. You should not have to take out a loan to see a doctor for a common cold, you should not need insurance for a regular visit those should be very affordable to all to see a doctor, but that is not the case for some reason today in America the greatest country? We live in a world were we are fighting over insurance so a person can afford to see a doctor for a common cold? What we need to do is figure out why that cost so expensive and solve that so you don't need insurance to see a regular doctor!!
 
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But your statement was "healthcare was decided at the polling booths"...by that logic, more PEOPLE wanted what Hillary was selling.

Your key word is "wanted"...

Elections are not like liberalism where there are no winners or loser, only participants.

The process "the people" of this country chose to use to elect our president is called the electoral college.

The "electoral college" is a process that does not care who won the "popular vote"...

Until that changes the president will remain the president.

As for Trump losing the popular vote...

Kind of reminds me of this famous quote by David Craig, the Seattle QB at the time when asked by a Kansas City reporter how it felt to be sacked by Derek Thomas ( 6 ) times in one game...

His response

"Yeah he got me six times!!! ....."

"Who cares?...we won the game". :)

http://davekriegsstrikebeard.blogspot.com/2009/08/november-11-1990.html?m=1
 
Why does everybody keep saying Healthcare, we have always had healthcare and don't add affordable in front of it...just because you add insurance still does not change the fact that healthcare cost are out of control!! If anybody thinks this election was a referendum on health care you are crazy, it was on the affordability of healthcare and not because of insurance that is a sad mistake, people are tired of Hospitals charging a butt load for simple care and getting a lot less. People are tired of having health insurance and still having to pay up to $100 out of pocket for a doctor to give you a simple antibiotic and a 5 minute visit, then being charged hundreds of dollars for that antibiotic. This was about the middle class and middle America feeling like the recovery has left them behind and healthcare cost continuing to go up and taking more and more of what little they earn, we were promised if passed that Obamacare would drive down those cost, why because more people would have insurance and hospitals would not have as big of loses, it was a bill of goods. Sure we have been told that without Obamacare healthcare cost would go up more, but that is not what we were told we were told they would go down and they really should be going down as health providers should be writing off less loses with over 25 million now having insurance??
Sure people want health insurance but what they really want, and what they think they want are two different things we want affordable healthcare not a band aid called insurance. You should not have to take out a loan to see a doctor for a common cold, you should not need insurance for a regular visit those should be very affordable to all to see a doctor, but that is not the case for some reason today in America the greatest country? We live in a world were we are fighting over insurance so a person can afford to see a doctor for a common cold? What we need to do is figure out why that cost so expensive and solve that so you don't need insurance to see a regular doctor!!
Bingo.

No one would care about an individual mandate if you could buy insurance for $1,000/year.
 
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Why does everybody keep saying Healthcare, we have always had healthcare and don't add affordable in front of it...just because you add insurance still does not change the fact that healthcare cost are out of control!! If anybody thinks this election was a referendum on health care you are crazy, it was on the affordability of healthcare and not because of insurance that is a sad mistake, people are tired of Hospitals charging a butt load for simple care and getting a lot less. People are tired of having health insurance and still having to pay up to $100 out of pocket for a doctor to give you a simple antibiotic and a 5 minute visit, then being charged hundreds of dollars for that antibiotic. This was about the middle class and middle America feeling like the recovery has left them behind and healthcare cost continuing to go up and taking more and more of what little they earn, we were promised if passed that Obamacare would drive down those cost, why because more people would have insurance and hospitals would not have as big of loses, it was a bill of goods. Sure we have been told that without Obamacare healthcare cost would go up more, but that is not what we were told we were told they would go down and they really should be going down as health providers should be writing off less loses with over 25 million now having insurance??
Sure people want health insurance but what they really want, and what they think they want are two different things we want affordable healthcare not a band aid called insurance. You should not have to take out a loan to see a doctor for a common cold, you should not need insurance for a regular visit those should be very affordable to all to see a doctor, but that is not the case for some reason today in America the greatest country? We live in a world were we are fighting over insurance so a person can afford to see a doctor for a common cold? What we need to do is figure out why that cost so expensive and solve that so you don't need insurance to see a regular doctor!!

These are some of the drivers of cost but some that are hard to address:
People who have insurance.......when you only pay the premium, it's easy to spend a quarter million to get a month of extra life when you are dying. People also run to the Dr for things they would just "wait out" if they paid instead of the insurance paying.
Ridiculous lawsuit settlements.....we just had a case where 30 million was awarded for a mis-diagnosis of a rare disease. It's not like the person had pneumonia and was told they had a twisted ankle. Those costs must be accounted for. Drs don't charge 200 dollars a visit because of greed but because of malpractice insurance. They also run countless tests (expensive tests) that aren't needed just to insure they can't be sued for negligence.
Longer lifespans......we routinely spend a ton on people who would have died just 20 years ago.
Few buy their own insurance......most get their insurance through a job or the government. If we paid our own premiums, we would buy less comprehensive policies and use them less.

These are a few of the drivers that likely won't change (the lawsuit settlements must become more reasonable) and thus the costs won't either.
Who is to say what an extra month of life is worth? But we want to complain about the cost.
Who knows the actual value of a legit malpractice case?
How do you tell people to not go to the Dr when the insurance is paying for it?
Does anyone want shorter lifespans?
 
End of life care is much more of a Medicare concern than an ACA/employer concern - it's not a major reason why health care costs so much for a 40 or 50 year old. Even a 60 year old has under a 0.5% chance of dying in a year.

Malpractice is a very low % of the total medical spend in the US. Low single digits. It is not a significant reason why health care costs so much.

The #1 factor, again, is the cost being paid to providers that they are keeping as pay/profits. Why do we pay twice as much for a knee replacement as other countries? Why are our Rx drugs so expensive? Why do doctors in the US make a lot more than doctors in most other countries? Etc.

If you want to seriously tackle the cost of care in the US, it starts and ends with what is paid to providers.
 
These are some of the drivers of cost but some that are hard to address:
People who have insurance.......when you only pay the premium, it's easy to spend a quarter million to get a month of extra life when you are dying. People also run to the Dr for things they would just "wait out" if they paid instead of the insurance paying.
Ridiculous lawsuit settlements.....we just had a case where 30 million was awarded for a mis-diagnosis of a rare disease. It's not like the person had pneumonia and was told they had a twisted ankle. Those costs must be accounted for. Drs don't charge 200 dollars a visit because of greed but because of malpractice insurance. They also run countless tests (expensive tests) that aren't needed just to insure they can't be sued for negligence.
Longer lifespans......we routinely spend a ton on people who would have died just 20 years ago.
Few buy their own insurance......most get their insurance through a job or the government. If we paid our own premiums, we would buy less comprehensive policies and use them less.

These are a few of the drivers that likely won't change (the lawsuit settlements must become more reasonable) and thus the costs won't either.
Who is to say what an extra month of life is worth? But we want to complain about the cost.
Who knows the actual value of a legit malpractice case?
How do you tell people to not go to the Dr when the insurance is paying for it?
Does anyone want shorter lifespans?

Most people go to the doctor because they don't get paid to stay home sick plus you can get fired it is a big worry for middle class America.
About 13 years ago I worked with an Hispanic, and when they got sick they would travel back to Mexico to go to the doctor said they hated to go here in America because they would not do anything and cost were ridiculous. They could go back to Mexico go to the doctor and get medicine cheaper than here. My Neighbors still go back and get meds crazy.
 
Most people go to the doctor because they don't get paid to stay home sick plus you can get fired it is a big worry for middle class America.
About 13 years ago I worked with an Hispanic, and when they got sick they would travel back to Mexico to go to the doctor said they hated to go here in America because they would not do anything and cost were ridiculous. They could go back to Mexico go to the doctor and get medicine cheaper than here. My Neighbors still go back and get meds crazy.
There are American patients who travel to these places for medical procedures as well because they are cheaper.
 
End of life care is much more of a Medicare concern than an ACA/employer concern - it's not a major reason why health care costs so much for a 40 or 50 year old.

Malpractice is a very low % of the total medical spend in the US. Low single digits. It is not a significant reason why health care costs so much.

The #1 factor, again, is the cost being paid to providers that they are keeping as pay/profits. Why do we pay twice as much for a knee replacement as other countries? Why are our Rx drugs so expensive? Why do doctors in the US make a lot more than doctors in most other countries? Etc.

If you want to seriously tackle the cost of care in the US, it starts and ends with what is paid to providers.

Just talked about this in another post, funny how alot of Hispanics I know go back to Mexico for doctor care and medicine because cheaper.
 
There are American patients who travel to these places for medical procedures as well because they are cheaper.

I think America is number one money spent on healthcare by a long shot, and we are below average in life expectancy. Sometimes wonder if our system does not reward hospitals and doctors who do charge more and for people who have insurance. My dad talked about when we were little in the early 60's how when he took us kids to the doctor he just paid cash. Even when we were born he was able to save up the money to pay cash for us and no insurance. Sure the doctor smoked in the hallways of the hospital but care was affordable.
 
I think America is number one money spent on healthcare by a long shot, and we are below average in life expectancy. Sometimes wonder if our system does not reward hospitals and doctors who do charge more and for people who have insurance. My dad talked about when we were little in the early 60's how when he took us kids to the doctor he just paid cash. Even when we were born he was able to save up the money to pay cash for us and no insurance. Sure the doctor smoked in the hallways of the hospital but care was affordable.
America is behind a lot of other developed nations on items like life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.

The headline figures do mask that fact that there are huge variations in these sorts of measures by socioeconomic status. And the problem is actually getting worse, not better, for white Americans - life expectancy gains for the rich continue to be strong but they are not strong for people with below median incomes. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/13/...pans-of-the-rich-and-the-poor-is-growing.html This sort of thing
 
End of life care is much more of a Medicare concern than an ACA/employer concern - it's not a major reason why health care costs so much for a 40 or 50 year old. Even a 60 year old has under a 0.5% chance of dying in a year.

Malpractice is a very low % of the total medical spend in the US. Low single digits. It is not a significant reason why health care costs so much.

The #1 factor, again, is the cost being paid to providers that they are keeping as pay/profits. Why do we pay twice as much for a knee replacement as other countries? Why are our Rx drugs so expensive? Why do doctors in the US make a lot more than doctors in most other countries? Etc.

If you want to seriously tackle the cost of care in the US, it starts and ends with what is paid to providers.

If you are talking about insurance companies, Take ALL their profit and see how much of a dent is made in cost. They all compete for business and must be competitive.

If you are talking about Drs., Nurses, and Hospitals, they have competition too. Not saying they loose money but their profits can't be high enough to explain the cost of care without the factors I cited.
If Drs made 50K a year, nurses made 12 bucks an hour, and hospitals were capped at 2% profit, costs would be cheaper.......open up a hospital of your own like this.
 
Most people go to the doctor because they don't get paid to stay home sick plus you can get fired it is a big worry for middle class America.
About 13 years ago I worked with an Hispanic, and when they got sick they would travel back to Mexico to go to the doctor said they hated to go here in America because they would not do anything and cost were ridiculous. They could go back to Mexico go to the doctor and get medicine cheaper than here. My Neighbors still go back and get meds crazy.
How do they travel to Mexico without missing work and getting fired?
 
America is behind a lot of other developed nations on items like life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.

The headline figures do mask that fact that there are huge variations in these sorts of measures by socioeconomic status. And the problem is actually getting worse, not better, for white Americans - life expectancy gains for the rich continue to be strong but they are not strong for people with below median incomes. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/13/...pans-of-the-rich-and-the-poor-is-growing.html This sort of thing

Whenever anyone cites the wonderful benefits (disputed benefits) of European Socialized Medicine, they never mention the short wait times and easy access.
 
Why are you calling MRI machines idiots?

Though MRI machines have a high cost, at least they contribute to society in a positive way.

Why do hillbilly Democrats like yourself only take from society but never give back?

Remember you posting once that Climate Change was not really "real" but it was a great way to get Government Funded Handouts.

I thought you libs cared more about the "Environment" than that....sad :(

071213_p16_man5.jpg


Again I'm not judging you...
 
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