I know it is an old discussion but I feel it is time again for Administrators and MSHSAA to look at the Private/Public situation in Mo. HS Athletics. This has been a problem for decades and the multiplier system doesn't seem to level the playing field. The private school: scholarship, all star teams are making the playing field unlevel. It seems like the Privates are getting bolder and bolder in their recruiting and promotion of their Programs. I could go into detail but just look at the bill boards, twitter messages and roster changes recently and you know what I mean. And now we are having Sportsmanship issues. I know it takes two to Tango but if we have separate divisions, we take away the situation at MICDS last week. Why not have a separate District and State Championship Series, a unique thought. If a Public School wants to play a Private School during the season that should be their choice. But come District time, there should be separate championships. Administrators and MSHSAA get off your backsides, remove your blinders and do what is right for the high school athletes in Missouri. This is difficult for me to write for I am a former student athlete, educator and coach from the St. Louis Catholic School system but it is time to get it right.
Private vs Public
- Thread starter SoWalHawks
- Start date
It’d be interesting to see how the two divisions would work in Missouri. Regarding MICDS, I don’t see how them playing a private school would’ve prevented their kids from using slurs. It certainly hasn’t stopped them from doing it any other time.
STL posters 5....4.....3.....2......1
Wouldn't work for 8-man, but this setup could work for 11-man:
Class B: 37 Private Schools (8 districts of 4-5 teams)
Class A: 64 Smallest Public Schools (16 districts of 4)
Class 2A: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 3A: 60 Next Smallest Public Schools (4 districts of 15, top seed gets bye)
Class 4A: 60 Next Smallest Public Schools (2 districts of 30, top 2 seeds get bye)
Class 5A: 45 Schools (Catch all single district, top 19 seeds get bye)
Class B: 37 Private Schools (8 districts of 4-5 teams)
Class A: 64 Smallest Public Schools (16 districts of 4)
Class 2A: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 3A: 60 Next Smallest Public Schools (4 districts of 15, top seed gets bye)
Class 4A: 60 Next Smallest Public Schools (2 districts of 30, top 2 seeds get bye)
Class 5A: 45 Schools (Catch all single district, top 19 seeds get bye)
Too late. I beat your post by 45 min. There are private schools in SWMO and areas other than St. Louis. They don’t seem to get mentioned when people complain about the things that EVERY private school does, but private school detractors don’t really like to address that much. Which school did they cry about before Trinity became their favored target 3 years ago? I’m not opposed to separate divisions. It wouldn’t stop certain people from complaining, but there’s no way to please everyone.
So, you’d have Class 1 Valle completing against Class 6 CBC? Oddly enough, other states do something similar. The single biggest issue when having schools of wildly varying enrollments play football is the depth of their teams. That doesn’t guarantee the larger school will win though. Lamar is Class 2 but their roster being much larger than every other team they play in the classification is a big advantage. At the end of the day, most teams only go 18 or so players into their rosters for players that get significant minutes/impact ... so it’s not always an issue.
Private schools can always allow more students in though. It's not in the same realm of having Jasper try to compete with Joplin. The school might lose credibility if it were less academically exclusive, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
I can’t argue with that. I really can’t remember any supporters of rural private schools speaking up here. Maybe that’s because no one really focuses on them when the evils of private schools come up? I DO remember Blair Oaks (I think) losing their minds over John Burroughs when you get had their runs a decade ago. I think they were the Class 3 team that lost to Burroughs in 2015.
Ironically enough BO is expanding and ironically doing the same thing they accused John Burroughs of. BO shouldn’t be class 2 imo. I know how it’s based. But?
Private schools don’t have unlimited pools of students lining up to pay tuition. There’s still the issue of class sizes and such. Actually, private schools CAN and DO “have their cal and eat it too”. As much as I’d support a private school only division, it’s the public school administrators that keep it from really happening. There are WAY more public school votes than private school votes when MSHSAA meets on issues.
There are a lot of public schools that draw families and kids in. Which has been my point. Anyone familiar with Webb and CJ (among many others, including every public school in STL) has kids that came to their districts for sports along with all sorts of other reasons. What I’d love to see is a class elevation based on success, like Illinois has. 7 consecutive state rings would put Lamar against Class 5 or 6 schools and REALLY settle the debate over who the best is. If Lamar smashed CBC, who could argue that they’re the best in Missouri ?
I hate that system. Rewards/punishes future classes on the success/failures of previous ones. Each year is unique. Might as well break down the state after the regular season based upon size/overall record. That way we can avoid 1/8 beat downs and such and get down to rewarding mediocrity.
I have always been opposed to elevation for success but I am beginning to believe it is inevitable in order to achieve competitive balance.
Beyond the fact that it’s pointless and never going to happen....
Private Schools would probably just leave MSHSAA entirely if you went that route. Start making their own rules.. who knows..
Private Schools would probably just leave MSHSAA entirely if you went that route. Start making their own rules.. who knows..
What obligation does MSHSAA have to address 1 vs 8 beat downs? These are all schools within the same classification. Obviously, there’s a huge difference in talent/success but when did losing a game by a ridiculous margin become child abuse? If getting 80+ dropped on your team or there’s serious concern that your kids are getting physically mauled, why wouldn’t a coach stop the game and capitulate? Is tapping out in the 3rd quarter when you’re down 55, can’t move the ball and can’t stop the other team worse than struggling vs a running clock and still losing by 12 TDs?
You are correct BO should be class 3 for this classification cycle. However, Trinity Catholic and Cardinal Ritter turned in inflated enrollments which bumped them up to class 3 and in turn pushed BO down to class 2. It’s obvious why Trinity Catholic and Cardinal Ritter turned in enrollments that when combined with the multiplyer would put them as solid class 3 schools this cycle. The enrollments of public high schools can be found very easy on the dese website. Private high school enrollments vary from source to source... whatever is convenient for them.
Cardinal Ritter’s MSHSAA figure for the ‘18-‘19 cycle 357. (265 students)
Cardinal Ritter’s MSHSAA figure for the ‘16-‘18 cycle 347. (257 students)
**Let me remind you that only 3 grade levels (9th,10th,and 11th) were used for the enrollment figures in the ‘18-‘19 cycle. This is different than in previous years when 4 grade levels were used. So I find it amazing how Ritter’s enrollment figure is higher in the ‘18-‘19 cycle only using 3 grade levels than it was the previous using 4. Ritter’s ‘18-‘19 TrUE MSHSAA enrollment figure, with the multiplier factored in already is ..........
260 give or take a couple.
Which would have placed them in class 2 this cycle.
Trinity Catholic MSHSAA figure for the ‘18-‘19 cycle 360 (267 students)
Trinity Catholic MSHSAA figure for the ‘16-‘18 cycle 374 (277 students)
Trinity Catholic’s ‘18-‘19 TrUE MSHSAA enrollment figure, with the multiplier factored in already is.................. 281 give or take a couple. Also a figure that would put them in class 2 this cycle.
I’m sure there was some fudging of the enrollment numbers this cycle by many high schools both public and private. But nothing like these 2. It is comical that they inflated their enrollments as much as they did. I mean we are talkin 33% and 29% increases of the student population. That’s an entire grade level of new students. I will congratulate both schools though on getting away with it. MSHSAA had to have noticed this and made the decision to do nothing.
I don’t want to make the assumption that both schools turned in these inflated enrollments to dodge Lutheran North... But they turned in inflated numbers to dodge Lutheran North.
Something has to change with Private/ Public. Since 1968 there was only 9 seasons where private schools didn't win a state title. I think its time for private schools form there own league or have their own class
Class 1: 64 Smallest Public Schools (8 Districts of 8)
Class 2: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 3: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 4: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 5: 40 Next Smallest Public Schools (4 Districts of 10, top 2 seeds get bye)
Class 6A: 19 Next Smallest Private Schools ( 4 Districts of 4-5)
Class 6B: 18 Smallest Private Schools ( 4 Districts of 4-5)
Class 1: 64 Smallest Public Schools (8 Districts of 8)
Class 2: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 3: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 4: 64 Next Smallest Public Schools (8 districts of 8)
Class 5: 40 Next Smallest Public Schools (4 Districts of 10, top 2 seeds get bye)
Class 6A: 19 Next Smallest Private Schools ( 4 Districts of 4-5)
Class 6B: 18 Smallest Private Schools ( 4 Districts of 4-5)
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I think that is a true fear to some in splitting it up. Kind of a deal of if you think we push it now, it will become a free for all if you push us to it.
Lutheran North is good. I can usually get a good idea onn upcoming game like the Blair Oaks / LN matchup possibility on 24th of November but at this time I can't with so many factors both outside and inside. Blair Oaks throws, runs, and razzle dazzles on offense and has been stellar on defense. LN from the small amount of info I have obtained is a more physical ground pound team. Weather could be a big factor with it possibly cold, rainy /snowy and possibly windy as well which limits what the teams will do or what they could get away with doing.
Honestly, this game could be a toss up... flip a coin... This game will be must see no matter the weather.
Honestly, this game could be a toss up... flip a coin... This game will be must see no matter the weather.
And with that, Hangmanbobbyjagg, dropped his mic, and left the building faster than Elvis himself.
Yes it’s like not even noticeable now. Was it a horse? Idk. But that dude is still whacking it. Oh well. Lol
And with that, Hangmanbobbyjagg, dropped his mic, and left the building faster than Elvis himself.
If LN and BO meet in the semifinals, you and I will need to make friendly wager and watch the game together. Hopefully you’re not one of those weirdos that puts ketchup on a bratwurst.
There will be no relish on brats in my presence!
I would like a Beer with mine and pulling for the Oaks if that game happens
mine is the alcoholic kind.. Thats really my only stipulation
What about the private schools like Missouri Military Academy and St. Paul's Lutheran? I'm sure there are others like them around the state. Private schools don't bother me much being someone who is from Central and Southwest Missouri where they aren't that many. This seems to be a more of a St. Louis problem than anywhere else, even Kansas City doesn't have that many.
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