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Grichuk is a platoon player. Taveras should have played more.

Duck_walk

Duck_walk

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2002
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Taveras should have gotten to start some games in the playoffs against righties. Its not a shock that Grichuk struckout a lot.

Grichuk really only hits left-handed pitchers. In Triple-A this year, he came in at .325/.376/.505 in 123 at-bats against southpaws and .233/.286/.403 versus righties. That is triple-A pitching.
 
I'm guessing we will see OT and Jay with Grichuk off the bench to start next year. OT hit pretty well at the end of the season. Then again so did Grichuk.
 
If OT can shorten his swing, he could get a lot better, but we already have a ton of left handed hitters in the lineup.
 
We have a lot of left handed hitters.

If OT goes to winter ball and improves, I could see a platoon with he and Grichuk, with
Grichuk being a defensive replacement in late innings and pinch hitting.

it would be nice if we make a deal for some power. Anyone could have signed Nelson Cruz
last year and he carried the Orioles. We really need to improve our hitting one way or another.

That and maybe if Matheny takes a leave of absence when we play the Giants. Maybe a mission trip?
 
Originally posted by Duck_walk:
Taveras should have gotten to start some games in the playoffs against righties. Its not a shock that Grichuk struckout a lot.

Grichuk really only hits left-handed pitchers. In Triple-A this year, he came in at .325/.376/.505 in 123 at-bats against southpaws and .233/.286/.403 versus righties. That is triple-A pitching.
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I think the Cardinals optimal lineup for a lot of playoff games involved Bourjos over either Grichuk OR Taveras. Defense matters, too. At home, Bourjos in CF and Jay in RF is probably the best team. On the road, it might be best to flip them.
 
There is no way Bourjos should play ahead of Grichuk or Jay for defense or anything else. If you really think defense matters you would not play Taveras over Grichuk. Taveras, Grichuk and Bourjos all strike out way too much but that doesn't seem to matter to most folks anymore, they think it's just another out.
 
Defense matters but its just a part of the package. Overall Bourjos is a better player in October 2014 than Taveras and Grichuk when you consider he moves Jon Jay out of CF.

You have a warped perspective of our AAA outfielders if you believe they are head and shoulders better than Bourjos. Notably taveras looked lost at the ML level. I love the guys potential but come on he was bad for the big club.
 
Jay is and should be the center fielder, he makes 99% of the plays Bourjos would make. Why would think it's good to move him out of CF? They tried that this year and you see was there and hitting .500 in the playoffs. The others strike out too much but Grichuk will hit for power and he is the best overall outfielder, especially for RF. That's really all we're talking since Holliday will be LF the rest of his contract. When Holliday is gone they can put Grichuk in CF if they want, Jay in left and see who is the best fit for RF by then but Grichuk has the best RF arm of the bunch. Somebody will get traded and the one that's left will probably get RF. I assume they will all hit for better average and hopefully cut down on the strike outs.
 
Come on did you watch the playoffs? Jay is not anywhere near the defender that bourjos is. Bourjos is one of the 3-5 best CF in baseball. Jay is average at best.
 
Have you already forgotten jay dropping the one ball and letting one hit land in front of him that bourjos would have had in just this series?

Jay was bad defensively vs the giants. There's no way around that. Grichuk also struggled defensively at times.

This post was edited on 10/19 2:45 PM by Neutron Monster
 
Just stop Neutron. You could show him stats that prove your argument that are 100% irrefutable....and he would still argue with you

It's not enough that PB is one of the better rated defensive CFs by people who actually get paid to scout
 
I saw Jay drop a ball when he hit the ground. I saw Bourjos drop a ball when he just dropped the ball, no dive, no fall, no contact of any kind, just dropped the ball. You can say Bourjos would have got to a ball that Jay wouldn't have but you have NO to know if he would have or not and you don't know if he would have caught it when he got there. I guess you didn't see the games where Jay made some REALLY good catches and went a long to get to them if you think he was bad defensively against the Giants. The folks that make the big money to make decisions about who plays and who sits chose Jay, Grichuk and sometimes Taveras over Bourjos.
 
They make that decision because most pitchers could out hit him. Not based on defense
 
That is part of the game, but Grichuk didn't hit for much of a average either and he still played ahead of Bourjos. The only time Taveras had a decent average was when he pinch hit. Maybe the brass don't like the little girly dance Bourjos did when he would swing and miss any more than I do. I don't see how they can keep Taveras to pinch hit and Bourjos as a late inning defensive replacement for Holliday. They need to deal an outfielder for RH bat wiht some pop off the bench but those in question haven't proved to be worth much yet. I guess they could move Jay and put Grichuk in CF but they will be giving up defense if they start Taveras without proof of the offense they think he'll bring and I can't see him going back to AAA.
 
So you really think Bourjos had any business playing a regular part in this post season?

Excuse me for looking forward, since this season is over for the Cardinals. Maybe Grichuk is the one that will draw some interest from other teams and get traded. I hope not but it's quite possible.
 
He was the third best OF on the roster in 2014 plus SF's home park is maybe the toughest outfield in the NL for a defender. Yes he had a role to play.

I am all for figuring out what we have in the kids but they didn't show anything that suggested they should be playing over peter right now.
 
Holliday is our second best OF. He needed to play. LF at AT&T is the normal part of the park that isn't outrageous for a defender. It's the craziness of right field that makes AT&T a tough outfield.
 
Originally posted by Eagles_Ball:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Holliday is our second best OF.
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Defensively, or overall?
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You're leading the witness with that question!

I brain farted, I meant best overall during 2014. Jay was 2nd. Bourjos 3rd. Craig was 1,157th.
 
Grichuk may be better than any of them defensively and has the best arm by far. He has the possibility to be the best offensively too if we're gonna talk about Taveras being so good but hasn't had time to prove it.
 
Grichuk may have the best arm but the guy played most of his minor league career as a corner outfielder for a reason. He doesn't have Bourjos's range.

There's no real debate about who is the best defensive OF on the Cardinals at this point in time.

Grichuk does seem ahead of Taveras in the field, I'll give you that.
 
You have got to be kidding me! You think he is anywhere near the same level as Taveras??? Grichuk can run circles around Taveras in the field and on the bases. I don't know who will be the better hitter down the road but I do know who will be the better defender. He is best all around outfielder that played in the bigs for the Cardinals this season. BTW the guy with a strong arm plays RF for a reason, it doesn't mean he can't go get the ball. Did you see the catch he made in right center sliding under Jay? He went a LONG way to get that ball. One of the few times it's good idea to slide, the only other is when you're about to run into a wall in foul territory.
 
Originally posted by 3Rfan:
You have got to be kidding me! You think he is anywhere near the same level as Taveras??? Grichuk can run circles around Taveras in the field and on the bases. I don't know who will be the better hitter down the road but I do know who will be the better defender. He is best all around outfielder that played in the bigs for the Cardinals this season. BTW the guy with a strong arm plays RF for a reason, it doesn't mean he can't go get the ball. Did you see the catch he made in right center sliding under Jay? He went a LONG way to get that ball. One of the few times it's good idea to slide, the only other is when you're about to run into a wall in foul territory.
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I don't think anyone is saying Grichuk has no range, just that his range isn't that of Bourjos. Bourjos probably has more range than anyone in the MLB, and is arguably the majors best defensive CF'er. To say he doesn't have his range isn't a knock. He doesn't. Heck, hardly anyone does.
 
Dude your Deadbirds could sign mike trout and this old buzzard would cry about taking Jon jay out of the lineup.
He needs to get a job.
 
Originally posted by Eagles_Ball:

Originally posted by 3Rfan:
You have got to be kidding me! You think he is anywhere near the same level as Taveras??? Grichuk can run circles around Taveras in the field and on the bases. I don't know who will be the better hitter down the road but I do know who will be the better defender. He is best all around outfielder that played in the bigs for the Cardinals this season. BTW the guy with a strong arm plays RF for a reason, it doesn't mean he can't go get the ball. Did you see the catch he made in right center sliding under Jay? He went a LONG way to get that ball. One of the few times it's good idea to slide, the only other is when you're about to run into a wall in foul territory.
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I don't think anyone is saying Grichuk has no range, just that his range isn't that of Bourjos. Bourjos probably has more range than anyone in the MLB, and is arguably the majors best defensive CF'er. To say he doesn't have his range isn't a knock. He doesn't. Heck, hardly anyone does.
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This, when you're comparing range, there's Cain, Bourjos, Carlos Gomez, and maybe 1 or 2 others who are clearly superior to the rest of MLB on that measure. They are light years ahead of Grichuk.
 
We haven't seen enough of him to know that yet but he also has the best arm of ANY Cardinal outfielder I've seen play. I have not seen Piscotty so I have no idea what he's like but I hear very good things about him.
 
Runny get with the program if you're gonna bitch about something. This discussion is about Grichuk, but hen I didn't see Trout in the playoffs and if he had been I'll bet he wouldn't have hit nearly .500 like Jay did.
 
Originally posted by 3Rfan:
Runny get with the program if you're gonna bitch about something. This discussion is about Grichuk, but hen I didn't see Trout in the playoffs and if he had been I'll bet he wouldn't have hit nearly .500 like Jay did.
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That kind of helps prove the point a bit on Jay. Dude did hit .500 in the playoffs. And the Birds were 4-5. He can't carry a team offensively, even when he hits .500, the way a Holliday, Adams, Wong, or Peralta can. And he's not going to win a Gold Glove (or more importantly, win the advanced matrix race) in CF. Slap and tickle and no real speed. Again, nothing to sneeze at. But not like he's good enough they shouldn't pursue opportunities to improve in CF.

This post was edited on 10/23 6:09 PM by Eagles_Ball
 
Are you seriously trying to imply that Jay is better than Trout?

Please tell me I'm freaking crazy
 
OK you're crazy, I didn't say that. YOU brought up Jay and Trout when we were talking about Grichuk. I just had throw in that Trout and or Pujols did NOT carry their team anywhere. I have NEVER said Jay is an MVP or a gold glover, I HAVE said he was the best option in CF for the St. Louis Cardinals this season and post season and he proved that. I think Grichuk is currently the best all around out fielder on their roster. We'll see if he can hit for average and cut down on the strike outs next spring.
 
IIIIIIIII

Never once brought up trout, not did make the remark implying that Jay can out hit Mike Trout. Good try though
 
Wrong guy, Runny was talking about Trout and Jay. I did not say Jay is better than Trout.
This post was edited on 10/23 9:21 PM by 3Rfan
 
Originally posted by Eagles_Ball:

Originally posted by 3Rfan:
Runny get with the program if you're gonna bitch about something. This discussion is about Grichuk, but hen I didn't see Trout in the playoffs and if he had been I'll bet he wouldn't have hit nearly .500 like Jay did.
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That kind of helps prove the point a bit on Jay. Dude did hit .500 in the playoffs. And the Birds were 4-5. He can't carry a team offensively, even when he hits .500, the way a Holliday, Adams, Wong, or Peralta can. And he's not going to win a Gold Glove (or more importantly, win the advanced matrix race) in CF. Slap and tickle and no real speed. Again, nothing to sneeze at. But not like he's good enough they shouldn't pursue opportunities to improve in CF.

This post was edited on 10/23 6:09 PM by Eagles_Ball
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Good points Eagles. Would the record have been any different with Bourjos out there, probably not. Obviously that's not all Jay's fault but as you say he's not a player who can carry a team. This is why the Birds have been looking for a CF since unloading Jimmy Ballgame. Jay hasn't been the worst out there but when you look around the league there's several you'd pick before him.
 
Originally posted by Eagles_Ball:

Originally posted by 3Rfan:
Runny get with the program if you're gonna bitch about something. This discussion is about Grichuk, but hen I didn't see Trout in the playoffs and if he had been I'll bet he wouldn't have hit nearly .500 like Jay did.
Click to expand...
That kind of helps prove the point a bit on Jay. Dude did hit .500 in the playoffs. And the Birds were 4-5. He can't carry a team offensively, even when he hits .500, the way a Holliday, Adams, Wong, or Peralta can. And he's not going to win a Gold Glove (or more importantly, win the advanced matrix race) in CF. Slap and tickle and no real speed. Again, nothing to sneeze at. But not like he's good enough they shouldn't pursue opportunities to improve in CF.

This post was edited on 10/23 6:09 PM by Eagles_Ball
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Jay has no real power, that's true, but it's impossible to win a series on your own offensively. Look at Bonds in 2002 - he abused the Angels for a 1994 OPS (that's not a misprint) and they still lost the series.
 
Not to mention Jay was playing with a wrist injury that required surgery after they got beat.
 
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