All you need to know is the Birds could have had Martinez, but chose not to pursue him. Diamondbacks got him for some 1A and 2A prospects. The Birds over value both their prospects and wallet. I just don't see them making the big splash everybody is talking about. Hope I'm wrong
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Martinez was purely a rental. Given where the Cards were in July, trading for a rental that required giving up real talent was a pretty silly idea. Why rent a guy when you're going to miss the postseason anyway? It's pointless. The Cards can still sign Martinez this offseason without giving up that much. Why on earth should they have given up real prospects for him then?
If you want to judge them for anything at the deadline, it would be for not rejiggering the team with a long-term plan in mind.
The fairer judgment is of what they did in November-February last winter and what they do in November-February this year.
So you are saying the team that prides itself on getting a player in their club house and selling them on the Cardinal way didn't want to try that approach with a guy who cost the Diamondbacks next to nothing. To answer your question on why on earth they would give up real prospects ( I think you might find that the Diamondbacks real prospects were not so much.) The answer is this. They now stand 1.5 games back of a playoff spot. Do you think their record would be better or worst if Martinez was a Cardinal since the trade deadline and do you think they would have a better or worst chance to sign once he got in the clubhouse. That question is debatable but it is a talking point for MO. The Cards have an abundance of OFs and should have been able to put forth a package that would not have hurt their future and put them in a better position to fix one of the biggest needs they have. Oh yes I might add the the Diamondbacks took a chance on JD and it has paid off very well. Granted they were in a much better position than the Birds which in my mind makes all the more frustrating that once again the Birds failed to take a chance.
You can't make trades with hindsight. The Cards had about a 20% chance to make the postseason at the trade deadline. Even now they are still under a 30% chance - where we'd immediately have to play a one game, 50/50 battle to get into the real 8 team playoffs. This team should not have been making major trades for only 2017.
The Cardinal way stuff sounds like what fans tell themselves to convince themselves that every guy on earth wants to take a big discount to play for this team. Most guys aren't going to do that. Especially not ones who are approaching their only chance ever to get paid. The Cards should not be trading for guys with the idea that they are magically going to take a 20% discount to play here after 2 months where they miss the playoffs.
I get the we have too many OF stuff, but that is something the Cards should use to improve the team for 2018 and beyond via a trade, not for a rental. I agree the D Backs didn't give up that much, but the "value" to the Cards of giving up almost anything for a rental was so low that this consideration was much less meaningful for us than for a team like the D Backs who were basically locked into a playoff spot by the end of July.
We will have to agree to disagree because I know you are much like Trump (never wrong) but in this case you are . Thanks for playing
Nah, of all the things to criticize this team for, their decision to not rent a player at the deadline is really low on the list.
At least if you trade for Donaldson/Stanton/etc. they could be a part of the Cardinals next playoff team.
At least if you trade for Donaldson/Stanton/etc. they could be a part of the Cardinals next playoff team.
That would have been way too many Martinezes for the white nationalist fan base.
As I said we will have to agree to disagree. I believe Donaldson hits the market in 2019 so we are talking a one year rental instead of 3 months and I'm not sure our percentage to make the playoffs would be high enough to make such a short term trade and you have always advocated against trading for Stanton.
There's a massive difference between a trade that includes 2018 and one that doesn't when your team is basically already out of the playoffs for 2017.
My point on Stantion is I think the cost is too high because of the contract's backloaded nature + opt out but I think the idea of the trade at least has some logical basis - getting a star player for a long term is a reasonable idea. The logic underlying a trade at the 2017 deadline for the Cards to get help for 2017 only would have been insane given how far out we were. It's the sort of thing that you should fire your GM for doing.
One question. Is is 1.5 games too far out with 7 games to play. Simple yes or no.
According tp Neuty the percentages say they are not contending thus they should continue to do nothing.
There were players available that would have made a game or two difference without giving up the farm. This never stopped the previous GM from making
moves.
Agree! The Diamondbacks really did not give up any top 50 prospects, but you know the percentages just made it impossible to try to get back in the race.
Won't argue about 1st base.
Fowler should be in LF or RF at this point for you guys, but..... you know......Matheny
Enjoy your Cubs in the playoffs. I dont even hate them any more. Although Maddon's nose looks like he has been consuming a lot of alcoholic beverages. Just sayin.
Look who clinched it for the Dbacks. Yea. We didnt need him.
Check out @SportsCenter’s Tweet:
If you remember we both were pulling for Cruz.
Wonder who has a higher percentage of signing Martinez now? Diamondbacks or Cardinals. I mean after all it's all about percentages.
Lets be real. If Mo was in charge we would have never gotten Cesar Cedeno or Will Clark to put us over the top. Jim Edmonds would have "cost too much".
Lets not let facts get in the way of a good argument...but, ummmm....
2017 - 2009 = 8 freakin years ago.
Bahahahahaha
The thing is the Cardinals gave up prospects who were under club control for more years and took a risk on a guy to help us down the stretch with no guarantee he would sign long term. Holliday was a legit MLB middle of the order hitter. This is the kind of deal Mo refuses to even consider 2013-2017.
He seems to consider them just can't close the deal. We are in need of 2 closers right now.
To justify a trade? Yeah. Our odds of making the playoffs at 1.5 games back with 7 to go are easily <20%.
The question is meaningless, though. You can't make a trade with 7 games left. The question is where were you in July when you could make a trade, not where are you on Sept. 20-25.
You have to evaluate trades by what the likelihood of making the playoffs is when you can actually make them. If the Cards were 10 games out now, you'd say, my gosh, trading would be stupid! And of course it would be at that time. But it may have made sense to do so at the deadline of that season if the Cards were in a playoff position at that time.
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That is not remotely what I said.
Once 2/3rds of a season is over, you have to be rational in evaluating your likelihood of making the playoffs during that season. The Cards best chance to be truly competitive in the playoffs on July 25th was in 2018, not in 2017, because we did not have a very good chance of making the postseason this year based upon our record at that time. That meant making decisions that focused the club on having a better team in 2018.
The Cards were also generally in playoff position when they made these trades for people like Walker, Finley, Moss, etc.
A team that was crushing its division like the 2015 Cardinals should do something very different at the deadline than the 2017 Cardinals, who were roughly a .500 team at that time.
Context matters.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/?date=2017-07-27
Random day by the deadline. The Cards were 50-52. The D Backs were 59-43. Their incentives to make trades at the deadline were not comparable.
Why are the D Backs in the playoffs and not us? Because they were 8-9 games better than us in April-July.
I think there is a lot of truth to this, though. They are making money hand over fist.
Jocketty left in like 2007. Mo made a lot of deadline deals after that. Most notably, a lot of trades in 2011 (Dotel, Scrabble, etc.)
Edmonds was not a deadline deal. Roger Cedeno was a terrible player who made no difference to whether or not we made the playoffs. And Will Clark was brought in specifically because McGwire was hurt.
Better examples were Finley and Walker and guys like that.
Mo has been the GM for about 10 years, there's a good number of deadline deals in that time.
Moss and DeRosa were generally terrible deals. But some others were better.
For the 10 years prior to this year the Birds have the second best record in baseball. That's certainly not luck or an accident. Many other teams with much higher payrolls and more big name stars have not done nearly as well. They must have been doing quite a bit right over that time. I have no reason to believe they're going to take missing the playoffs two years in a row lightly. I think they'll make some changes this off season in attempt to be more competitive next year.
I hope so.
But you also have to acknowledge that 10 years ago they had Pujols, Yadi, and Waino locked down as one hell of a core. With the exception of Reyes, there's no one on the current Cardinals roster who projects to have a decent chance of ever being as good a player as any of those three were at their peak.
Duck is right that the Cards need a stud somewhere.
The challenge is it can be really costly to bring that in from outside. Yadi and Pujols grew up here. Waino came over as a minor leaguer. The Cards desperately need to develop a star as a cost-controlled center of our lineup or rotation.
So you need Theo, Jed and Jason
Sometimes you have to make an uncomfortable move to advance your organization. Signing an aged catcher with a multi year extension rather than working in one of the better catching prospects......that is taking the safe route which gets you nowhere in the long run
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