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ag-man
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I agree Duck,
Due to democratic policy's, the poor just keep on multiplying and multiplying, the church just can't keep up.
If only we could use our critical thinking skills to alleviate the problem. FDR thought he had this whipped, but alas, there are more poor than before. Where did he go wrong ?
Cripes, maybe promising everybody a free ride doesn't work? Maybe somebody actually has to pay the bills? Crap, this sucks. How could we ever convince someone to pull their own weight?..... Honest question?
The poverty rate is demonstrably lower thanks to government policy supported by democrats. There is absolutely zero data supporting what you are saying and lots of data which supports the opposite position.
There are lots of fair questions about anti poverty programs, but the idea that government cannot alleviate poverty is a total canard sold by charlatans on the right.
To add to this, the poverty rate in the early 1900s was two to three times what it is now. Government actions have played a major role in this.
Keep in mind that a lot of programs we don't necessarily think of like the school system, SS, and Medicare are powerful antipoverty tools.
There are lots of fair questions about anti poverty programs, but the idea that government cannot alleviate poverty is a total canard sold by charlatans on the right.
To add to this, the poverty rate in the early 1900s was two to three times what it is now. Government actions have played a major role in this.
Keep in mind that a lot of programs we don't necessarily think of like the school system, SS, and Medicare are powerful antipoverty tools.
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agman, Your critical thinking skills must have been missing the day in history class when the teacher was teaching about the Great Depression. During the 1930s, 60% of Americans were classified as poor and unemployment was 25-30%. You can skip trying to give us a history lesson. Most of us have a more accurate knowledge of our actual history than you. Stick to something you know about like cow shit.
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ag-man
Guest
So if the government CAN allieviate poverty, why are so many people living in poverty?
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ag-man
Guest
Hey, I was just reading Ducks link that said more and more people are getting poor, and the church cannot keep up. But evidently there are less poor than before according to you and NM.
So which is it?
Good god man. There is one party that cut the crap out of food stamp funding this past year. Do you pay any attention?
More people have become poor since the '08 recession. However, "poor" is a relative term. Those of us old enough have heard stories from our parents and grandparents on how poor people actually were during the Great Depression on 1930s. We cannot even imagine today how bad things were during that time. Even growing up in the '60s and '70s, many families where I grew up were poor, including mine, but we just didn't know it. We grew up in families that doing without many things or money was the norm. Rich meant you had air conditioning and color TV. I know there is a good % of our population that is "dirt poor" today. But that % is not what it was in our past during the Great Depression or even the recessions of the '60s and '70s. There are just more people in our country today, and thus more people who are poor. We are a spoiled nation. I'm amazed to see so many "poor" kids today with I Phones, $100 tennis shoes, money in their pockets, and driving decent cars, yet parents are on welfare and food stamps.
That's the million dollar question, isn't it? No society on earth has ever answered it.
Poverty rate has risen since 2008. Look at the spike in claims for food stamps during the recession.
It's a short-term versus long-term thing
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ag-man
Guest
If food stamp funding has had the "crap" cut out of it, why is there more people on food stamps than at any other time in history?
It's a combination of the US having going through the worst economic crisis in decades and updates to the law signed by a number of Presidents over time which expanded access to the program
Food stamp use is declining now due to the improvement in the economy.
Here are a couple of actual statistics for those who enjoy such things as actual facts: 62% of SNAP recipients currently hold a job. 87% of SNAP recipients have held a job in the past year. The average HOUSEHOLD benefit for for SNAP in Missouri is $255 per month. This number goes down as income increases toward the poverty level. Just in case you would like to further discuss this point, I am personally in a different SNAP or Medicaid office everyday of the week all across the country and see a lot of actual poor people and have never seen a person driving a Mercedes or wearing a Rolex or giant diamond. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm proud to pay my taxes to a country who provides assistance to those who have no where else to turn.
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Stevedangos
Guest
Most people when they get hungry enough will get off of their butt and work for a meal. About 90% of food stamp program needs done away with. Need to limit eligibility to one year so its not a program people end up on their entire life.
I grew up as poor as anyone in my class and we were never on food stamps or welfare. Others were. We never felt like we were going to starve even though Mom and Dad were at minimum wage or very close. Being in need can be a huge motivator.
Prior to working in this world there were many things I didn't understand about poverty and honestly I thought people could just get a job, but I am yet to meet a person who wants to be on welfare. The options which many of you "think" are available just aren't there on the coasts or in a large city. How about this for another stat, in 2013 over $100 million in SNAP benefits were redeemed in grocery stores on military bases. Are those families freeloaders as well? I wish I could take some of you with me for a week to actually observe the very invasive interviews a SNAP or Medicaid recipient goes through in order to receive benefits. A standard initial Medicaid application is 13 pages long and requires bank statements, pay stubs, landlord verification, income and job verification, proof of residence, and birth certificates for dependents, then the state has 30-45 days to make a determination on that application. People don't just walk in and grab a card and get free medical.
The US just had a crisis and changes in law that served as a very good time for us to evaluate in the real world how antipoverty programs supposedly retard a desire to have a job.
Two key facts come to mind:
- When the US enters a recession involving a shortage of liquidity and a shortage of demand for businesses, there simply aren't enough jobs to go around relative to the US labor supply
- The US cut the long-term unemployed off the rolls once the recession had ended. Guess what impact this had on the hiring rate for these individuals? Zero. Meaning, the idea that people are just sitting around collecting checks is not consistent with the data.
I'm not going to argue the programs aren't ever a disincentive to work for some, but the programs in the US are at a low enough level that almost no one is trying to just hang out on these programs.
If there is a single program that functions in such a way, it's Social Security disability (which is our hidden welfare for middle aged people who are underemployed), not food stamps or unemployment. We have very good data that demand for this program explodes when recessions happen, and people who qualify for disability very rarely ever leave the program.
Two key facts come to mind:
- When the US enters a recession involving a shortage of liquidity and a shortage of demand for businesses, there simply aren't enough jobs to go around relative to the US labor supply
- The US cut the long-term unemployed off the rolls once the recession had ended. Guess what impact this had on the hiring rate for these individuals? Zero. Meaning, the idea that people are just sitting around collecting checks is not consistent with the data.
I'm not going to argue the programs aren't ever a disincentive to work for some, but the programs in the US are at a low enough level that almost no one is trying to just hang out on these programs.
If there is a single program that functions in such a way, it's Social Security disability (which is our hidden welfare for middle aged people who are underemployed), not food stamps or unemployment. We have very good data that demand for this program explodes when recessions happen, and people who qualify for disability very rarely ever leave the program.
To dovetail on this SSI is a completely separate program and though much of it is handled in the same state offices as Medicaid and SNAP, there is a completely different playbook for the dispensation of benefits when disability is involved, the same is true of Long Term Care. These cases require actual medical records evaluation during the determination process. I think the belief among the general public is that you just walk into an office and claim you need benefits and they are distributed to you. In reality it is a very long process, especially in Missouri where the backlog of cases is over 100,000 cases. If a person applies for Medicaid in Missouri today, they will most likely not hear from the state for a minimum of 2 months which is the beginning of the process.
SS disability awards have shifted towards diagnoses that are much more subjective in nature. And there's not much incentive for the average disabled person to leave disability; if anything, the opposite is true.
Plus, the process is managed by doctors and lawyers who know how to get people qualified.
It's a program with a worthy purpose but it needs to be updated.
Plus, the process is managed by doctors and lawyers who know how to get people qualified.
It's a program with a worthy purpose but it needs to be updated.
I wish the government would pay me $100 for every person on SS disability or welfare that I find a job for! I'd "retire" tomorrow. There are people who need disability but most just can't or won't do their previous job. That doesn't make you disabled.
Mr. bleach, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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ag-man
Guest
Actually Miller, you needed to add a comma, and remove the "can't" and your post would make perfect sense.
I would agree with it. As posted, not so much. But I know what you meant, and you are correct.
Driving down the street in my town disgust me. While I am driving to McDonalds on my lunch hour, every 30 year old in the county seems to be on the sidewalk. Tattooed , wearing a bandana , strutting by his "old lady" pushing a stroller, smoking a cigarette.
Unlike WW1, I am not happy to be bankrolling these lowlifes.
I would agree with it. As posted, not so much. But I know what you meant, and you are correct.
Driving down the street in my town disgust me. While I am driving to McDonalds on my lunch hour, every 30 year old in the county seems to be on the sidewalk. Tattooed , wearing a bandana , strutting by his "old lady" pushing a stroller, smoking a cigarette.
Unlike WW1, I am not happy to be bankrolling these lowlifes.
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ag-man
Guest
That might be true VB, where do you suggest? Seems like all towns have this nowadays.
This was a simple Google, but since you're so disgusted by poor people I'm sure you already use this hotline regularly. Every state has a welfare fraud unit and some even give rewards, get to work!
http://dss.mo.gov/dls/pafraud.htm
I was thinking after I posted, but it's probably stupid of me, I mean since they have tattoos, smoke, and are out in the middle of the day they have to be freeloaders on welfare, but could they actually work the night shift somewhere?
I hate to admit that I agree with agman, but I see more and more of the 20's somethings walking the streets during the day without a care in the world. These are young able body males and females with baby strollers. I do believe this is what they were taught growing up by their freeloading parents. There is no doubt they are living off the government. They drop out of school with no education or training, and have figured out that the only jobs they can find are minimum wage jobs and it is easier to just cash a government check each month, use food stamps, and sell street level drugs to survive. They were taught this behavior. And anyone who has ever worked in our public schools can pick out a hand full of kids each year who you know will never be productive members of society and don't want to work.
I do have sympathy for poor people down on their luck. But as most Americans, I am disgusted with people who habitually abuse the system and have more babies to collect bigger welfare checks. By the time they have 2-3 kids, it pays more to stay at home than to work and pay childcare.
I don't know how the welfare system works for people applying, but one stipulation should be anyone receiving welfare benefits should have to show credible proof that they are actively seeking employment. I also believe anyone under 25 yrs old who is not working or going to school should be eligible for military draft.
I agree Duck, 99% of people feel better about themselves when they are working. But for many on welfare, it is learned behavior.
I do have sympathy for poor people down on their luck. But as most Americans, I am disgusted with people who habitually abuse the system and have more babies to collect bigger welfare checks. By the time they have 2-3 kids, it pays more to stay at home than to work and pay childcare.
I don't know how the welfare system works for people applying, but one stipulation should be anyone receiving welfare benefits should have to show credible proof that they are actively seeking employment. I also believe anyone under 25 yrs old who is not working or going to school should be eligible for military draft.
I agree Duck, 99% of people feel better about themselves when they are working. But for many on welfare, it is learned behavior.
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ag-man
Guest
I have given serious thought to that also WW1,
However, our town has but one company that even has a night shift, and I also know for a fact, a large % of above said people are on the dole.
I do find your posts pretty comical when it comes to the younger generations. Whether it's questioning my work ethic or something else. You're getting closer and closer to being that crotchety old man yelling at kids to get off your lawn.
Now I have no doubt that there are a ton of people in my generation that are useless members of society. But I see plenty in every generation. I've seen it first hand.
Something else to think about when you see these "troubled youths" walking the streets during the day pushing baby strollers. I do believe my generation has resurrected the "stay at home parent". I would guess about 50% of my friends with kids have a parent that stays at home. Whether it's the cost of daycare or just family values. When you're paying 24k a year to send two kids to daycare in Saint Louis County, at what point does it become a wash?
I have a buddy that lives here in the SG. Makes MAYBE 40k a year. His wife stays home with their two daughters. Small house on a small piece of land. One vehicle, rarely buy new clothes etc. etc. Thats their choice. But they don't rely on the government to pay their way. Although it may look like one of these people you're describing, by the quality of vehicle or clothes, they are not.
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ag-man
Guest
C'mon Kenny,
You know who Bogey and I are referring to. Does your buddy walk the streets at all hours of the day? No, because he is at work. Or, he works the night shift and during the day is at home asleep.
This is not the person's we are talking about.
Also, if you know a little secret about having a spouse stay at home I'm all ears. My wife and I can hardly pay the bills with both of us working. Of course we do like to blow some money on things like food, clothes, and the house payment.
C'mon Kenny,
You know who Bogey and I are referring to. Does your buddy walk the streets at all hours of the day? No, because he is at work. Or, he works the night shift and during the day is at home asleep.
This is not the person's we are talking about.
Also, if you know a little secret about having a spouse stay at home I'm all ears. My wife and I can hardly pay the bills with both of us working. Of course we do like to blow some money on things like food, clothes, and the house payment.
My point was there are just as many deadbeats in this generation as there was in the previous generation. His wide assumption of younger generation is what I was referring to.
And yes it's called priorities. My wife seriously considered being a stay at home. I didn't think we could do it until after sitting down and going over every penny spent in a six month period. A lot of waste in there. It was very possible.
Just another quick fact for those of you supposedly footing the bill for the freeloaders, if you make $50,000 per year your tax burden for the food stamp program is, $36.80. Thanks for your help and sorry that's such an inconvenience. Why don't you Google your contribution to corporate welfare in a tax year, you would be very surprised what the middle class is paying to support them.
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