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Encarnacion. Blackmon. Turner.

Duck_walk

Duck_walk

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2002
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Last winter Duckwalk campaigned hard to sign Encarnacion and Turner and/or trade prospects for Blackmon instead of signing Fowler.

Encarnacion has slumped late. Still he has a .377 obp. 36 dingers. 96 RBI and an .876 ops.

Blackmon has had a career year. 200 hits. 131 runs. .332/.399/1.007. 35 HRs. 95 RBI.

Turner was injured for 25+ games. But is at .324/.415/.954 with 21 HRs and 70 RBI.
He has struck out only 53 times...

Encarnacion plays a lot of DH in the AL.
But he can play first as well as Carp or Martinez.

Will they ever open up the vault?
 
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Duck_walk said:
Last winter Duckwalk campaigned hard to sign Encarnacion and Turner and/or trade prospects for Blackmon instead of signing Fowler.

Encarnacion has slumped late. Still he has a .377 obp. 36 dingers. 96 RBI and an .876 ops.

Blackmon has had a career year. 200 hits. 131 runs. .332/.399/1.007. 35 HRs. 95 RBI.

Turner was injured for 25+ games. But is at .324/.415/.954 with 21 HRs and 70 RBI.
He has struck out only 53 times...

Encarnacion plays a lot of DH in the AL.
But he can play first as well as Carp or Martinez.

Will they ever open up the vault?
Click to expand...
To answer your question no. They will continue to finish 2nd when it comes to premium players and then sign 2nd tier type players and sell us on Memphis players.
 
Duck_walk said:
Last winter Duckwalk campaigned hard to sign Encarnacion and Turner and/or trade prospects for Blackmon instead of signing Fowler.

Encarnacion has slumped late. Still he has a .377 obp. 36 dingers. 96 RBI and an .876 ops.

Blackmon has had a career year. 200 hits. 131 runs. .332/.399/1.007. 35 HRs. 95 RBI.

Turner was injured for 25+ games. But is at .324/.415/.954 with 21 HRs and 70 RBI.
He has struck out only 53 times...

Encarnacion plays a lot of DH in the AL.
But he can play first as well as Carp or Martinez.

Will they ever open up the vault?
Click to expand...
Turner was the real miss. That contract was a steal. I do wonder if he was actually interested in leaving LA when I see that deal. Surely someone else would have paid more.

Not in love with the idea of Encarnacion - he'd almost certainly be worse at 1B than either of them, and I can't imagine how terrible he'd be at that spot come 2019. Realistically, it's also not clear why he'd pick us vs. Cleveland for the same contract given he can DH there 140+ games a year. He had the feel of a guy who was destined to stay in the AL. You also have to consider how that left the rest of the roster that was already overloaded in the infield.

Blackmon...tough to evaluate without knowing what the Rockies wanted. No team in MLB though he would have a season like this - including the Rockies.
 
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vbsideout said:
To answer your question no. They will continue to finish 2nd when it comes to premium players and then sign 2nd tier type players and sell us on Memphis players.
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Fowler got the same $ per year as Turner and more $ overall than Encarnacion. That criticism is a lot fairer on them missing out on, say, David Price than it is on the people he mentioned. These guys were in the price range. The question is about how they decided to allocate the capital.

Turner would pretty clearly be better than Fowler, although you'd have to have some plan for what to do in CF without Fowler. If you knew Pham would blow up like this or if you were willing to stomach Pham + Grich as a below average CF...surely you'd rather have signed Turner, who is a premier 3B.
 
And, as much as I want them to have signed Turner (and said so 10 months ago) - he was born in Long Beach, went to Fullerton, etc. It's not clear that he was willing to leave LA for anywhere near the contract LA gave him.
 
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Neutron Monster said:
Blackmon...tough to evaluate without knowing what the Rockies wanted. No team in MLB though he would have a season like this - including the Rockies.
Click to expand...

Evaluate it this way......home/road splits. While his road splits aren't terrible, he's fully a product of Coors. He's putting up video game numbers in Coors, that's about it
 
Neutron Monster said:
Fowler got the same $ per year as Turner and more $ overall than Encarnacion. That criticism is a lot fairer on them missing out on, say, David Price than it is on the people he mentioned. These guys were in the price range. The question is about how they decided to allocate the capital.

Turner would pretty clearly be better than Fowler, although you'd have to have some plan for what to do in CF without Fowler. If you knew Pham would blow up like this or if you were willing to stomach Pham + Grich as a below average CF...surely you'd rather have signed Turner, who is a premier 3B.
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I wonder why Fowler plays CF while Pham plays LF when they're in the lineup together. Fowler was sold to us as an upgrade defensively in CF and I just ain't buyin it.
 
3Rfan said:
I wonder why Fowler plays CF while Pham plays LF when they're in the lineup together. Fowler was sold to us as an upgrade defensively in CF and I just ain't buyin it.
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Probably because your staff has no idea how to position him. Cubs shifted him around on nearly every at bat based on scouting reports. He went from good to meh when he left for stl, and it's likely not because he started a big decline already
 
wccards21 said:
Probably because your staff has no idea how to position him. Cubs shifted him around on nearly every at bat based on scouting reports. He went from good to meh when he left for stl, and it's likely not because he started a big decline already
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So improper shifting makes his throws erratic?
He thinks cut off men are like stop signs in my hometown....merely a suggestion.
 
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Duck_walk said:
So shifting makes his throws erratic?
He thinks cut off men are like stop signs in my hometown....merely a suggestion.
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In a roundabout way, yes. If he's better positioned, he's getting to the ball quicker and not rushing to get it back in

And come on.... you always talk about how terrible the defense is up the middle. Would they be able to do anything with the ball anyways?:D
 
Myself, like other Cards fans I'm sure, assumed Fowler would be an upgrade in CF. Sadly he's the 3rd best OF on the field at times. He just can't go get it like a good CF should be able to. And 3R is right on his throwing, although few OFs can actually throw the ball accurately anymore. Like a lot of the TLR years we were spoiled with Edmonds out there. I wondered why the Cubs didn't try harder to keep him. That seemed like a red flag. Money was no object for them. They just knew he wasn't worth as much as he was wanting.

The reason Fowler is still in CF is because they signed him to be the CF and that's were he wants to play. It's an arrogance thing. Mike and Mo have to explain to him that we have better defensive options and for the good of team next year he's moving to LF. If he's not OK with that he needs to accept a trade to a team that will let him.
 
oldroundballer said:
Myself, like other Cards fans I'm sure, assumed Fowler would be an upgrade in CF. Sadly he's the 3rd best OF on the field at times. He just can't go get it like a good CF should be able to. And 3R is right on his throwing, although few OFs can actually throw the ball accurately anymore. Like a lot of the TLR years we were spoiled with Edmonds out there. I wondered why the Cubs didn't try harder to keep him. That seemed like a red flag. Money was no object for them. They just knew he wasn't worth as much as he was wanting.

The reason Fowler is still in CF is because they signed him to be the CF and that's were he wants to play. It's an arrogance thing. Mike and Mo have to explain to him that we have better defensive options and for the good of team next year he's moving to LF. If he's not OK with that he needs to accept a trade to a team that will let him.
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The Cubs have Almora to build up. Why did we need Fowler? That's why they signed Jay, to split with Almora so he could be used in situations where he has the advantage(mainly vs LHP). And now he's worked his way into being a regular player and the starter next year

Fowler has never been a top defensive CF. He was good in Chicago.....because they shifted him around. From everything I've seen, that's not happening with him in STL and he's back to below average
 
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wccards21 said:
Evaluate it this way......home/road splits. While his road splits aren't terrible, he's fully a product of Coors. He's putting up video game numbers in Coors, that's about it
Click to expand...
There's a split, to be sure, but he's been an above average player outside of Coors.
 
oldroundballer said:
Myself, like other Cards fans I'm sure, assumed Fowler would be an upgrade in CF. Sadly he's the 3rd best OF on the field at times. He just can't go get it like a good CF should be able to. And 3R is right on his throwing, although few OFs can actually throw the ball accurately anymore. Like a lot of the TLR years we were spoiled with Edmonds out there. I wondered why the Cubs didn't try harder to keep him. That seemed like a red flag. Money was no object for them. They just knew he wasn't worth as much as he was wanting.

The reason Fowler is still in CF is because they signed him to be the CF and that's were he wants to play. It's an arrogance thing. Mike and Mo have to explain to him that we have better defensive options and for the good of team next year he's moving to LF. If he's not OK with that he needs to accept a trade to a team that will let him.
Click to expand...
Money is an object for the Cubs. Every team has a limit. A lot of their talent is entering arbitration or FA this offseason. Why would you offer Fowler a long term deal over someone like Bryant or Russell?

The question is why would they commit for five years to a 30 something guy when they need to invest that capital in their younger players. They already owed Heyward and Zobrist good money for 2016-2018 (and Heyward for longer.) Not sure it made sense to sign yet another older outfielder.
 
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Neutron Monster said:
There's a split, to be sure, but he's been an above average player outside of Coors.
Click to expand...
Just barely above average, 106 WRC+. Like I said, not bad away from Coors. But to give up the farm for him would be a massive mistake. I give him 100% credit though

In order to be taken serious in Coors, you need to put up video game level numbers. He's doing just that. .387/.460/.784/1.243 with a 186 WRC+
 
wccards21 said:
Probably because your staff has no idea how to position him. Cubs shifted him around on nearly every at bat based on scouting reports. He went from good to meh when he left for stl, and it's likely not because he started a big decline already
Click to expand...
If he was good center fielder they shouldn't have to move him around for every batter. The good ones can go get it, he can't. He does hit pretty well when healthy but that seems to be an issue for him too.
 
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3Rfan said:
Good outfielders don't need to be to told where to play a guy they've seen multiple times. Sometimes these folks are out thinking themselves.
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Lololololololololololololololol

Oh wait, you're serious
 
3Rfan said:
Good outfielders don't need to be to told where to play a guy they've seen multiple times. Sometimes these folks are out thinking themselves.
Click to expand...
The parks you are in change, there's 200 guys you play against pretty regularly, the other OF next to you changes, the pitcher changes, etc.

Your post makes no sense when you think about all of the other variables at play.
 
Neutron Monster said:
The parks you are in change, there's 200 guys you play against pretty regularly, the other OF next to you changes, the pitcher changes, etc.

Your post makes no sense when you think about all of the other variables at play.
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Are you saying a regular outfielder in your lineup doesn't remember what a regular hitter on another team does and how you should play him? I assume they do have team meetings discuss such things about the opposing lineup but, as you said, that can all change in the moment and the outfielder BETTER be able to adjust on the fly. I didn't play pro ball, or anywhere near that, and I NEVER had a coach have to tell me where to play a batter. Not in baseball and not playing softball when I got older.
 
3Rfan said:
Are you saying a regular outfielder in your lineup doesn't remember what a regular hitter on another team does and how you should play him? I assume they do have team meetings discuss such things about the opposing lineup but, as you said, that can all change in the moment and the outfielder BETTER be able to adjust on the fly. I didn't play pro ball, or anywhere near that, and I NEVER had a coach have to tell me where to play a batter. Not in baseball and not playing softball when I got older.
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Lolololololololol

You're still serious and this is more laughable then watching Lynn pitch the 1st inning tonight
 
Eagles_Ball said:
He's a tad hard-headed. That's why I dig him. But also why I need to bang my head off the wall after some of these type conversations. Lol.
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tenor.gif
 
goinlong said:
I have 2 questions about this...did DiMaggio play in Coors? And, did DiMaggio have a flowing mayne that looked anything near as great as Blackmon's mullet?
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He is having a heck of a year, no question, but, yeah, Coors matters a lot for that for that sort of thing.
 
Neutron Monster said:
He is having a heck of a year, no question, but, yeah, Coors matters a lot for that for that sort of thing.
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Totally agree it'd be a strong year anywhere, but he's certainly being aided by playing half his games there. For what it's worth, I like him and liked the idea of exploring a trade for him in the winter before they signed Fowler. I can't help but think some people wouldn't be happy with it, though, as he wouldn't quite put up the overall numbers he is now with the help of playing at Coors. It was the same thing with Holliday.
 
goinlong said:
Totally agree it'd be a strong year anywhere, but he's certainly being aided by playing half his games there. For what it's worth, I like him and liked the idea of exploring a trade for him in the winter before they signed Fowler. I can't help but think some people wouldn't be happy with it, though, as he wouldn't quite put up the overall numbers he is now with the help of playing at Coors. It was the same thing with Holliday.
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Problem is, I don't think you could make a trade for him at his actual value away from Coors. They are going to demand a premium, ignoring the fact that their players stats are incredibly padded at home
 
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goinlong said:
Totally agree it'd be a strong year anywhere, but he's certainly being aided by playing half his games there. For what it's worth, I like him and liked the idea of exploring a trade for him in the winter before they signed Fowler. I can't help but think some people wouldn't be happy with it, though, as he wouldn't quite put up the overall numbers he is now with the help of playing at Coors. It was the same thing with Holliday.
Click to expand...
Holliday on the A's in 2009: .286/.378/.454
Holliday on the road in 2008: .308/.405/.486
Holliday on the road in 2007: .301/.374/.485
Holliday on the road in 2006: .280/.333/.485

Matt Holliday on the Birds: .293/.380/.494

If you looked at Holliday ex-Coors...it was a pretty darn good projection tool.
 
wccards21 said:
Problem is, I don't think you could make a trade for him at his actual value away from Coors. They are going to demand a premium, ignoring the fact that their players stats are incredibly padded at home
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Also, trading for a guy after his big peak season is generally the wrong way to make a trade. He's probably not going to get better, but he could regress. You're probably going to overpay.
 
.276/.337/.447 as Blackmon's away stats even this year is kind of terrifying. Three years prior were .265/.312/.437

This guy has Coors miracle written all over him.
 
Neutron Monster said:
Also, trading for a guy after his big peak season is generally the wrong way to make a trade. He's probably not going to get better, but he could regress. You're probably going to overpay.
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I worded that wrong. I just meant in general. Not specific to this season.

Even last year, it would have taken an overpay ton get Blackmon. Now it's on to ridiculous levels. No doubt he hits regression. I'll still assume him at a 4-5 WAR guy, which is very valuable..... but they are going to want a trout level return now
 
wccards21 said:
I worded that wrong. I just meant in general. Not specific to this season.

Even last year, it would have taken an overpay ton get Blackmon. Now it's on to ridiculous levels. No doubt he hits regression. I'll still assume him at a 4-5 WAR guy, which is very valuable..... but they are going to want a trout level return now
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Yeah, it is tough for the Rockies to fairly value their pitchers and hitters in trades.

Hence why we were able to fleece them for Kile a long time ago.

Bridich hasn't been as bad as O'Dowd was about this, though.
 
Neutron Monster said:
Holliday on the A's in 2009: .286/.378/.454
Holliday on the road in 2008: .308/.405/.486
Holliday on the road in 2007: .301/.374/.485
Holliday on the road in 2006: .280/.333/.485

Matt Holliday on the Birds: .293/.380/.494

If you looked at Holliday ex-Coors...it was a pretty darn good projection tool.
Click to expand...
Agree, but too many people expected the numbers of a man who spent half his career in Coors. He was a solid lineup contributor his time here, but I feel like he got way too much hate from people expecting him to be something he wasn't.
 
goinlong said:
Agree, but too many people expected the numbers of a man who spent half his career in Coors. He was a solid lineup contributor his time here, but I feel like he got way too much hate from people expecting him to be something he wasn't.
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He dropped the ball. He blew the playoff game/series on a routine can of corn. He was a crappy left fielder. When he got hurt in game 6 in 2011 thats when we started our comeback. He didnt play game 7 and we won it. He has never been in the game for a WS championship moment. I am glad. @$!#&% him.
 
Duck_walk said:
He dropped the ball. He blew the playoff game/series on a routine can of corn. He was a crappy left fielder. When he got hurt in game 6 in 2011 thats when we started our comeback. He didnt play game 7 and we won it. He has never been in the game for a WS championship moment. I am glad. @$!#&% him.
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He was a bad defender but he was not good when he came here. He was a darn good player from 2010-2014. He earned the contract.
 
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