Competition Factor

[sw5890]

I've seen this article shared by some athletic clubs from Lamar and Carthage about an alleged MSHSAA proposal to add a competition factor. Sport specific but otherwise not a lot of details.

https://www.justwintoday.com/single-post/2018/01/21/MSHSAAs-New-Idea

 

[Duck_walk]

I've seen this article shared by some athletic clubs from Lamar and Carthage about an alleged MSHSAA proposal to add a competition factor. Sport specific but otherwise not a lot of details.

https://www.justwintoday.com/single-post/2018/01/21/MSHSAAs-New-Idea

Other states have already done this. I posted an article about it two months ago.
They didnt seem embarrassed.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

Duck, what’s the difference between this proposal and only giving Lamar three downs instead of four because they are so good?

This has “snowflake” written all over it (and I thought you didn’t like “snowflakes” )

 

[Duck_walk]

Duck, what’s the difference between this proposal and only giving Lamar three downs instead of four because they are so good?

This has “snowflake” written all over it (and I thought you didn’t like “snowflakes” )

I didnt say I think it is a good or bad idea.
I see the reasoning for it. I understand the argument against it. I was simply pointing out that Missouri isnt the only state considering this. I believe Alabama was the state I posted about previously.

 

[_slo_mo_]

Duck, what’s the difference between this proposal and only giving Lamar three downs instead of four because they are so good?

This has “snowflake” written all over it (and I thought you didn’t like “snowflakes” )

If you need that explained to you or you feel compelled to ask this question, you are a very irrational person

 

[Mitsurugi san]

If you need that explained to you or you feel compelled to ask this question, you are a very irrational person

Sticks and stones...

Your response is typical social media speak for “I disagree with you, but can’t provide a decent answer to your question myself”...

If you’re going to accuse me of anything, accuse me of plagiarizing my argument straight from the article attached above because that’s what I did (I take it you think that author is just as irrational?)...

Or you can retort with an actual argument of your own...?

 

[J. Kane]

Other states have already done this. I posted an article about it two months ago.
They didnt seem embarrassed.

 

[LHSTiger81]

If you need that explained to you or you feel compelled to ask this question, you are a very irrational person

What, exactly, is rational about punishing a team's success and rewarding a team for not being successful? Taking Lamar, for example, I remember when we were scheduled for everybody's homecoming game. To be honest, there was even a time when we considered getting out of the Big8 (at the time). Instead, mindsets were changed and instead of avoiding the competition, we decided to use our competition as a measuring stick. We got better. We ended up improving US, not decreasing our competition.

 

[_slo_mo_]

Sticks and stones...

Your response is typical social media speak for “I disagree with you, but can’t provide a decent answer to your question myself”...

If you’re going to accuse me of anything, accuse me of plagiarizing my argument straight from the article attached above because that’s what I did (I take it you think that author is just as irrational?)...

Or you can retort with an actual argument of your own...?

Yes I think the author is just as irrational. And by the way saying someone is being irrational isn't necessarily an indictment on them. I'm not saying you or the author is a dumbass, just the points you're making don't make a whole lot of sense.

There is a real logic leap in saying something like, "well why don't we just take away a whole down!" This rule isn't purposing anything like that, in fact it is purposing the opposite. There is a big difference between letting the best coached and most complete teams continually challenge themselves and "Punishing" them. If any classes team has won 7 or 8 straight state titles, I think giving them the opportunity to test their mettle in a higher class' tournament would be good for their program.

You can look at it like a "snowflake" thing if you want, and chances are nothing I say will change that. However, I do not see how letting dominate teams face better opponents is going to hurt a school, IF they have proved they're up to the challenge.

What, exactly, is rational about punishing a team's success and rewarding a team for not being successful? Taking Lamar, for example, I remember when we were scheduled for everybody's homecoming game. To be honest, there was even a time when we considered getting out of the Big8 (at the time). Instead, mindsets were changed and instead of avoiding the competition, we decided to use our competition as a measuring stick. We got better. We ended up improving US, not decreasing our competition.

And this is the thing, Lamar has proven many times that they could probably also win C3. You already play in the best C3 conference in the state, and win it consistently. Wouldn't a team like Lamar wanna try to bump up the challenge and continue to improve? This isn't punishing to Lamar, because they've proved they can hang. Also, being bumped down wouldn't be a reward, in fact it would be pretty embarassing. If a team like Lamar was going to be bumped up that would mean some team in C3 would have to be knocked down and chances are it wouldn't be a team that's automatically going to dominate C2, they'd still have a long way to go.

I'm not saying this is the greatest idea ever, but if we can come up with a better way, something more than just simply school enrollments, to get the best teams competing against each other shouldn't we at least look at it? If you have a little fluidity to the thing then you can have a system where if a team proves it can compete it's rewarded by getting a shot to up the ante and take the pride that comes with it.

Hopefully this makes sense, been a while since I've had to type this much!

 

[Treadmill]

What, exactly, is rational about punishing a team's success and rewarding a team for not being successful? Taking Lamar, for example, I remember when we were scheduled for everybody's homecoming game. To be honest, there was even a time when we considered getting out of the Big8 (at the time). Instead, mindsets were changed and instead of avoiding the competition, we decided to use our competition as a measuring stick. We got better. We ended up improving US, not decreasing our competition.

Why would a team even WANT to stay at a level where they crush the competition every year? If they're truly interested in competition, why wouldn't they embrace the chance to move up? Why shy away from playing competitive games?

 

[Duck_walk]

As a coach I cant relate to coaching a team that plays for the state championship every year. So I am not sure where I stand. I am in awe of those programs.

As a fan I get bored with the same teams being in the show me bowl every year. I also get bored with the Patriots. I am sick of seeing Alabama every single year. It is truly fun to see new blood and the excitement of fan bases experiencing ultimate success. Sorry.

 

[JNreturns]

The dumb thing about that factoring is the assumption the team will stay the same from year to year. You have three good years because of personnel, then you have a down year. Oh, the year we got moved up? Stupid.

 

[LHSTiger81]

Lamar winning the Big 8 title in 2015 was the first time since the 1930's, so I'm not sure consistently is established, yet. I understand your point on competition and it's valid except that we're dealing with High School kids, here. Keep in mind, while we suit up a good number considering our enrollment size, competing with teams with higher enrollment numbers affords them the luxury of selection and numbers. I'm not going to go down the "we work harder than everyone" or "we're coached better than everyone" road because work ethic and coaching isn't what we're discussing, here. We have been blessed and fortunate to have the success we've enjoyed but at the end of the season, these kids are beat up. Check out the size differences when playing a Trinity Catholic or Luthern North. These are all star teams assembled with some of the best in the area. (no need to debate that whole situation. it's been done, plenty) One also has to consider the trends that produce a season or two or even three of good athletes and then a season or two or three where your talent pool isn't as deep. So, depending on the timing, you move a team up and they get crushed and moved back down. What's the point? So, I'm going to respect your opinion but maintain that competition will only get better if communities, schools and teams want to get better. "Fixing" the system seems more like a welfare mindset instead of a success mindset.

 

[J. Kane]

As a coach I cant relate to coaching a team that plays for the state championship every year. So I am not sure where I stand. I am in awe of those programs.

As a fan I get bored with the same teams being in the show me bowl every year. I also get bored with the Patriots. I am sick of seeing Alabama every single year. It is truly fun to see new blood and the excitement of fan bases experiencing ultimate success. Sorry.

 

[Duck_walk]

That isnt funny. And it doesnt make sense. Try again.

 

[kaching]

like others, I can see lots of problems. I wonder if some of the schools that win consistently would favor being moved up a class? For instance, would Valle rather be in class 2?

 

[Keyboard_QB]

As a coach I cant relate to coaching a team that plays for the state championship every year. So I am not sure where I stand. I am in awe of those programs.

As a fan I get bored with the same teams being in the show me bowl every year. I also get bored with the Patriots. I am sick of seeing Alabama every single year. It is truly fun to see new blood and the excitement of fan bases experiencing ultimate success. Sorry.

As a true fan and student of sport, I thoroughly enjoy watching the dynasties and legendary singular athletes each and every season. I freaking love Bellichick and his inate ability to adjust to very different team opponents, his own personnel changes, injuries, weather etc etc and how they always come out at or near the top of league. Saban is also a master, (no coincidence they were together in Cleveland) and the Pats and Tide benefit from them, and will continue to as long as those guys are passionate about their craft. Lamar has similar styles, themes, and schemes each year but there are always distinct differences with personnel, depth, injuries, opponents, and they are also able to adjust and still dominate. Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer all consistently dominated their sports and had to adjust as they aged and competition changed.

Root for the underdog if you wish, that's a great feel-good plan. But don't discount the great coaches, programs, and athletes because they win "too much".

 

[LHSTiger81]

Trophies for everyone!

 

[Rufus R. Jones]

Half the stuff up for discussion and vote every year are attempts to water down the competition. People would rather make it easier to win a state title than figure out how to get it done.

 

[JNreturns]

Half the stuff up for discussion and vote every year are attempts to water down the competition. People would rather make it easier to win a state title than figure out how to get it done.

And the one thing that could be done to make things better (change the catch all) is NEVER done. So Class 4 has teams at the bottom half the size of the teams at the top...and Class 5 really isn't much different than the top quartile of Class 4. They MIGHT AS WELL go back to 5 classes. Pointless.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

What are they going to do with the class 6 teams that win year after year? Is that when they start taking downs away?

 

[Eagles_Ball]

The dumb thing about that factoring is the assumption the team will stay the same from year to year. You have three good years because of personnel, then you have a down year. Oh, the year we got moved up? Stupid.

This X 1000

 

[Eagles_Ball]

What are they going to do with the class 6 teams that win year after year? Is that when they start taking downs away?

Play D-II playoffs???

 

[bullitpdq68]

What are they going to do with the class 6 teams that win year after year? Is that when they start taking downs away?

I guess you could make them not illegible for the playoffs for one year.

 

[Duck_walk]

Trophies for everyone!

Who said trophies for everyone? Thats a tired cliche. And no one said it.

 

[Duck_walk]

like others, I can see lots of problems. I wonder if some of the schools that win consistently would favor being moved up a class? For instance, would Valle rather be in class 2?

I doubt it. I am pretty sure Valle hasnt had a competitive game in their conference in over 5 years and it doesnt seem to bother anyone.

 

[sw5890]

Honestly I think there is some merit to the concept even though I'm not sold on it.

In college sports you see teams try to move up into D1. If you allowed schools to voluntarily move up would they? One could argue that teams should want to improve and move up and compete in the highest level they can. But in reality a C6 trophy is no more valuable than a C2 trophy. Moving up in class only makes it harder to get the same reward. Today the reward for "playing up" today is to gain an advantage when you jump down into your classification at districts.

How to identify teams that are a legit power and not just on a hot streak?

Webb City appearing in 75% of the show-me bowls over the last 20 years and perpetually hanging out as one of the largest C4 teams seems like a candidate.

Lamar with a long history of nothing, but 6 or 7 straight titles now. Are they on a hot streak or are they a new dynasty? What's the formula to determine this?

Harrisonville won state recently and are frequently in the discussion. Kearney? There is a lot of gray. How far down do you take it? When do you move teams up? When do you move them back down? Is there a limit on how many teams can move up? It's easier said than done.

And what is the actual purpose? If we move up WC and they go without a title for 5 years while the likes of CJ, Kearney, Hville, etc all get a piece of the action...mission accomplished? Or did it just move the goal post and rob a entire class of Webb City players and fans the same opportunity? Not that they would probably care, but wouldn't it devalue the C4 trophy, knowing that some of the best teams weren't in the fight? I truly would love to see more teams bringing home the prize. I'd love to see CJ and Carthage get it done. But manipulating the system to make it happen is a tough pill to swallow.

 

[JNreturns]

I guess you could make them not illegible for the playoffs for one year.

Ban them to only playing in a bowl game against a top out of state team. SMH

Honestly I think there is some merit to the concept even though I'm not sold on it.

In college sports you see teams try to move up into D1. If you allowed schools to voluntarily move up would they? One could argue that teams should want to improve and move up and compete in the highest level they can. But in reality a C6 trophy is no more valuable than a C2 trophy. Moving up in class only makes it harder to get the same reward. Today the reward for "playing up" today is to gain an advantage when you jump down into your classification at districts.

How to identify teams that are a legit power and not just on a hot streak?

Webb City appearing in 75% of the show-me bowls over the last 20 years and perpetually hanging out as one of the largest C4 teams seems like a candidate.

Lamar with a long history of nothing, but 6 or 7 straight titles now. Are they on a hot streak or are they a new dynasty? What's the formula to determine this?

Harrisonville won state recently and are frequently in the discussion. Kearney? There is a lot of gray. How far down do you take it? When do you move teams up? When do you move them back down? Is there a limit on how many teams can move up? It's easier said than done.

And what is the actual purpose? If we move up WC and they go without a title for 5 years while the likes of CJ, Kearney, Hville, etc all get a piece of the action...mission accomplished? Or did it just move the goal post and rob a entire class of Webb City players and fans the same opportunity? Not that they would probably care, but wouldn't it devalue the C4 trophy, knowing that some of the best teams weren't in the fight? I truly would love to see more teams bringing home the prize. I'd love to see CJ and Carthage get it done. But manipulating the system to make it happen is a tough pill to swallow.

Since Kearney has been in 30% of the title games since 2001, they can move to class 5 too. K's best team in the last five years had to play Class 5.

 

[LHSTiger81]

Who said trophies for everyone? Thats a tired cliche. And no one said it.

I agree. It's a tired cliche. The sentiment behind it mirrors the topic of this discussion, though, so, in this case, it was quite appropriate. "We're tired of them winning, we want a chance. Change the rules so we can have a chance."

 

[Duck_walk]

As a true fan and student of sport, I thoroughly enjoy watching the dynasties and legendary singular athletes each and every season. I freaking love Bellichick and his inate ability to adjust to very different team opponents, his own personnel changes, injuries, weather etc etc and how they always come out at or near the top of league. Saban is also a master, (no coincidence they were together in Cleveland) and the Pats and Tide benefit from them, and will continue to as long as those guys are passionate about their craft. Lamar has similar styles, themes, and schemes each year but there are always distinct differences with personnel, depth, injuries, opponents, and they are also able to adjust and still dominate. Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer all consistently dominated their sports and had to adjust as they aged and competition changed.

Root for the underdog if you wish, that's a great feel-good plan. But don't discount the great coaches, programs, and athletes because they win "too much".

Belichick is the best NFL coach in history hands down. He won two Super Bowls for the Big Tuna while he was on his staffs. Remember their huge upset over Buffalo? That was Belichick. In fact, the Tuna never won a title without Belichick on his staff.

There is no league we can move him above the NFL!!

Saban is a different story he is a good coach, but to paraphrase Steve Spurrier, he is the greatest recruiter in the history of college football. There are plenty of coaches who are his equal. The dude has the best players. Belichick doesnt.

Regarding high school I guess I would say what is the mission of high school football?
There are some schools that are doing away with Valedictorians because honoring one person over everyone else is not really their mission. Do we even need post season football? I brought this up once before and got hammered. What is the mission?

 

[JNreturns]

Belichick is the best NFL coach in history hands down. He won two Super Bowls for the Big Tuna while he was on his staffs. Remember their huge upset over Buffalo? That was Belichick. In fact, the Tuna never won a title without Belichick on his staff.

There is no league we can move him above the NFL!!

Saban is a different story he is a good coach, but to paraphrase Steve Spurrier, he is the greatest recruiter in the history of college football. There are plenty of coaches who are his equal. The dude has the best players. Belichick doesnt.

Regarding high school I guess I would say what is the mission of high school football?
There are some schools that are doing away with Valedictorians because honoring one person over everyone else is not really their mission. Do we even need post season football? I brought this up once before and got hammered. What is the mission?

For the sake of safety, the concern of reasonable parents, and growing insurance costs, MSHSAA has decided to ELIMINATE the post-season football tournament.

It has been decided that:

1) Season play will be limited to 6 games.
2) Games will be contested with four 5 min. periods.
3) Only heads up tackling allowed. All tackles not deemed to be heads up will result in a 15 yard penalty.
4) No kick offs. Ball will be placed on the 35 yard line.
5) Scores will not be kept.
6) All participants will receive a Winner's Gold medal at the end of season play.
7) Webb City, Lamar, Kearney, Lee's Summit West, Blue Springs, Rockhurst, Harrisonville, Staley, Hazelwood Central, CBC, and Blue Springs South are all officially banned from partcipation.
8) All teams officially banned can enter two varsity soccer teams in official competitions henceforth.

 

[freezeoption]

you move somebody up then you got to move somebody down, you think that is going to go well, you sucked last season so we are moving you down even though you have the numbers in the student body to be in this class, the state needs to quit trying to change crap, they got everyone into the playoffs so I would say that is good enough, heck I saw they were thinking about having a separate girls state for wrestling, wth,

 

[J. Kane]

Belichick is the best NFL coach in history hands down. He won two Super Bowls for the Big Tuna while he was on his staffs. Remember their huge upset over Buffalo? That was Belichick. In fact, the Tuna never won a title without Belichick on his staff.

There is no league we can move him above the NFL!!

Saban is a different story he is a good coach, but to paraphrase Steve Spurrier, he is the greatest recruiter in the history of college football. There are plenty of coaches who are his equal. The dude has the best players. Belichick doesnt.

Regarding high school I guess I would say what is the mission of high school football?
There are some schools that are doing away with Valedictorians because honoring one person over everyone else is not really their mission. Do we even need post season football? I brought this up once before and got hammered. What is the mission?

 

[NorthWestBleachers]

I think giving them the opportunity to test their mettle in a higher class' tournament would be good for their program.

Highly successful teams will typically challenge themselves ... of their own accord ... in the regular season. They don't need a governing body to force higher standards on them than they do everyone else and then call it 'opportunity'. That's not what that word means. If we want to follow THIS logic??? Force the less successful teams to move up ... it'll be good for them. ????? I always feel this junk singles out Lamar in particular because other highly successful schools have a good chance of moving up organically. .. at some point. No one loads up a Uhaul and moves to Lamar. Hated to see they weren't a finalist for the new GOOGLE headquarters. No. Jobs.

 

[LHSTiger81]

Highly successful teams will typically challenge themselves ... of their own accord ... in the regular season. They don't need a governing body to force higher standards on them than they do everyone else and then call it 'opportunity'. That's not what that word means. If we want to follow THIS logic??? Force the less successful teams to move up ... it'll be good for them. ????? I always feel this junk singles out Lamar in particular because other highly successful schools have a good chance of moving up organically. .. at some point. No one loads up a Uhaul and moves to Lamar. Hated to see they weren't a finalist for the new GOOGLE headquarters. No. Jobs.

I kinda like the way you explained that. Agree, totally. I'm also confident that Lamar will move up organically, in the future. We're doing things regarding economic development that will bear fruit, eventually. One example is the recent Toyota plant that was announced for Haleyville, Alabama. Lamar was actually on the short list for this. 4000 jobs could have eventually resulted in the Lamar/Webb City match up that everyone talks about.

 

[BoosterBosko]

That isnt funny. And it doesnt make sense. Try again.

Come on Duck! You cant read that much into Joes posts. The guy is a drunk!

 

[wcfanfourever]

I kinda like the way you explained that. Agree, totally. I'm also confident that Lamar will move up organically, in the future. We're doing things regarding economic development that will bear fruit, eventually. One example is the recent Toyota plant that was announced for Haleyville, Alabama. Lamar was actually on the short list for this. 4000 jobs could have eventually resulted in the Lamar/Webb City match up that everyone talks about.

So if Webb made Class 4 semifinals 3-4 years in a row they get moved up to Class 5,,,,they make Class 5 semifinals 3-4 years in a row ( it COULD happen) they get moved up to class 6??

 

[J.Moxon]

So if Webb made Class 4 semifinals 3-4 years in a row they get moved up to Class 5,,,,they make Class 5 semifinals 3-4 years in a row ( it COULD happen) they get moved up to class 6??

What happens if CBC dominates Class 6?? Does MSHSAA create a new class or send all those other losers down to class 5? So CBC would just be the Class 6 champ every year.
What if Monroe City goes on a downslide and doesnet have a winning season in a few year, do MSHSAA make them go 8-man just because?
I'll stay in Texas!

 

[JNreturns]

They should worry about lowering the size differential factor in some of the classes before they worry about a "competition factor."

 

[revno]

JNreturns seems to worry about the size differential a lot, hmmm?