At the coaching clinic this weekend I heard someone say MO was going to 6 classes in Basketball in the next year or 2. Has anyone else heard this or can anyone confirm it?
6 Classes?
- Thread starter oldgold2001
- Start date
Should go back to four, but that’s not the mentality in current environment. It would be virtually impossible to have enough classes in today’s culture.
Remember, this is the same culture that is growing up playing at AAU tournaments where if you go 0-4 in your pool, you get placed in the “Gold” bracket and get to play all the other teams that went 0-4 in their pool so you can run home and brag to the local newspaper about how you advanced to the semifinals of some tournament no one cares about.
Eventually the Missouri playoff system will mirror Kansas’ where you have 16 teams per class, and as many classes as you need to make that happen, that way everyone will eventually find their way to the championship. Only no one will care because guess what, nobody cares. No one is driving to Dodge City to watch the Class 1AA state tournament, including the media who would all rather quit their jobs on the spot than have to watch five seconds of it.
So be careful what you wish for. ...
Remember, this is the same culture that is growing up playing at AAU tournaments where if you go 0-4 in your pool, you get placed in the “Gold” bracket and get to play all the other teams that went 0-4 in their pool so you can run home and brag to the local newspaper about how you advanced to the semifinals of some tournament no one cares about.
Eventually the Missouri playoff system will mirror Kansas’ where you have 16 teams per class, and as many classes as you need to make that happen, that way everyone will eventually find their way to the championship. Only no one will care because guess what, nobody cares. No one is driving to Dodge City to watch the Class 1AA state tournament, including the media who would all rather quit their jobs on the spot than have to watch five seconds of it.
So be careful what you wish for. ...
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Did not say I wanted, in fact I am fine the way it is. I heard it was happening from a coach and wanted to hear from more people. MSHSAA actually has a number of schools and if MO hits that then we automatically go to 6. Maybe we are close to that number. Who knows. Like I said I am fine the way it is.
Per MSHSAA By-Law, if their are 577 schools, there will be 6 classes. Don't know how close boys BB is to that but it is not far away. However, there is a move from a MSHSAA Ad-Hoc Committee, and I think it will happen, to create classes where the largest school is no more than twice the size of the smallest school in that class. That along with bracketing may cause it the 6 classes
Someone with the data: Since the creation of 5 classes in BB in 2004, how many schools in the bottom 3rd in enrollment in Class 5 have brought home a state trophy or won it all? I realize BB is unique in that one dominating player can control far more of the game than in other sports, but I am curious.
Someone with the data: Since the creation of 5 classes in BB in 2004, how many schools in the bottom 3rd in enrollment in Class 5 have brought home a state trophy or won it all? I realize BB is unique in that one dominating player can control far more of the game than in other sports, but I am curious.
Whatever makes it easier for Glendale to win the big one, I'm all for! If that's ten classes, then let's go to ten!
Superfan brings up a valid point because when I look at the numbers, NO ONE in the bottom third of enrollment since Class 5 was started in 2003 has EVER won a state championship. Correct me if I am wrong.
Why should we continue to punish those kids in that bottom third of that class for no more capricious reason that the number 96 or factors of 8 are sacred.
Lets put our kids in a fair chance to compete.
Why should we continue to punish those kids in that bottom third of that class for no more capricious reason that the number 96 or factors of 8 are sacred.
Lets put our kids in a fair chance to compete.
Why is there a difference in your numbers from the top of one class to bottom of the next?
I am guessing he using the actual school enrollments. Example there is not a school with an enrollment of 352. So he just moved up to the next school enrollment number which 353.
This is something that needs to happen. As some have already mentioned, with the current class system the largest schools in class 3-5 are well over twice as big as the smallest schools in those classes. That's even with current enrollment numbers being a little misleading, with only three grades factored in. Your larger schools in each class have another whole grade of kids with more students than their smaller opponents.
You can say it's whining, but the current system simply isn't fair. Especially considering that football has 7 classes when you factor in 8-man. Virtually every school in the state plays basketball, but it has two fewer classes than football, which is played by far fewer schools. Yet no one talks about football being watered down.
I know the smaller class 5 schools get crushed by the current system, but take a look at this class 4 district enrollment from last season.
Rolla- 932
Helias- 708
Osage- 439
Salem- 433
Owensville- 417
Eldon- 396
That district has remained intact, besides a Marshfield/Owensville switch, for the last four years. Rolla and Helias has met in the championship all four years. The closest game either of them have played, besides against each other, in the district tournament was 12 points, with most games being 20+ point wins. I'm not sure how people can reasonably expect the other schools in that district to compete on a yearly basis against a huge Class 4 and a big Class 4 private school. Well, the evidence shows that they can't compete. It takes the other school's "Once a decade" team to have a realistic chance against your average Rolla/Helias team, because those schools are over twice as big or much bigger and private.
You can say it's whining, but the current system simply isn't fair. Especially considering that football has 7 classes when you factor in 8-man. Virtually every school in the state plays basketball, but it has two fewer classes than football, which is played by far fewer schools. Yet no one talks about football being watered down.
I know the smaller class 5 schools get crushed by the current system, but take a look at this class 4 district enrollment from last season.
Rolla- 932
Helias- 708
Osage- 439
Salem- 433
Owensville- 417
Eldon- 396
That district has remained intact, besides a Marshfield/Owensville switch, for the last four years. Rolla and Helias has met in the championship all four years. The closest game either of them have played, besides against each other, in the district tournament was 12 points, with most games being 20+ point wins. I'm not sure how people can reasonably expect the other schools in that district to compete on a yearly basis against a huge Class 4 and a big Class 4 private school. Well, the evidence shows that they can't compete. It takes the other school's "Once a decade" team to have a realistic chance against your average Rolla/Helias team, because those schools are over twice as big or much bigger and private.
You are correct above. If classes are supposed to makes things better then Missouri probably needs 6 classes. Class 4 in this system has a big difference in enrollments when you really considered schools like Eldon, Owensville, and Salem are really smaller type schools.
This makes sense to me. If I recall correctly when there were just 4 classes, class 1 was basically double the size of everyone else.
Also, as someone stated above it has always confused me how there are more schools playing basketball than football but yet more classes in Football. I don't think making a 6th class waters anything down, you want to see watered down take a look at our neighbors to the west.
Only problem is, it's already watered down with five classes.
Football has always been a safety issue. Or that's at least the reason they cite. Rather than adding classes, I think it makes more sense to look at natural breaks or gaps in enrollment. Meaning, set a number for the bottom of C4 (in my world, this would be the largest class) and how many ever number of teams that fall into it are C4. So yes, it would create odd numbers all across the board. And some would scream it's unfair for C3 to have X number of teams while C2 has XX number of teams. But truthfully, this is a much more equitable way to divide. C1 and C2 would probably end up with a good deal more teams. A complaint that a school with 50 students not being able to compete with one of 250 doesn't do much for me. State titles are supposed to be meaningful. Not saying they aren't now, but they're certainly a good deal less than they once were. Only gets worse with another class. I can remember a time when all four, or at least three of four teams, in the final 4 were really, really good. Not the case now.
I guess the problem is there are so many small schools. With the current enrollment numbers there are about 400 schools in Missouri with a 3 grade enrollment under 500. What do you do with all those small schools. If you put them in a couple of classes there is roughly about 160 schools for the rest of the classes. I guess you could really do just 4 classes. Don't think that will happen.
0-200 Class 1
201- 500 Class 2
501- 950- Class 3
951- above Class 4
Would be 265 teams in class 1. 137 teams in class 2. 77 teams in class 3, 86 teams in Class 4
0-200 Class 1
201- 500 Class 2
501- 950- Class 3
951- above Class 4
Would be 265 teams in class 1. 137 teams in class 2. 77 teams in class 3, 86 teams in Class 4
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I'm kind of a numbskull in Civics. You mean a MSHSAA constitution, or like the really old one?
Giving this a bump to show again the need for another class in basketball. This was the district the last couple years that I referenced:
Rolla- 932
Helias- 708
Osage- 439
Salem- 433
Owensville- 417
Eldon- 396
This is the new one in roughly that geographical area:
Rolla- 932
Union- 713
Sullivan- 557
St. Clair- 531
Salem- 433
Owensville- 417
Now remember those numbers are only grades 9-11, so if you account for all grades the enrollment would actually look something more like this:
Rolla- 1243
Union- 951
Sullivan- 743
St. Clair- 708
Salem- 577
Owensville- 556
So again, how exactly are these schools considered the same class?
Rolla- 932
Helias- 708
Osage- 439
Salem- 433
Owensville- 417
Eldon- 396
This is the new one in roughly that geographical area:
Rolla- 932
Union- 713
Sullivan- 557
St. Clair- 531
Salem- 433
Owensville- 417
Now remember those numbers are only grades 9-11, so if you account for all grades the enrollment would actually look something more like this:
Rolla- 1243
Union- 951
Sullivan- 743
St. Clair- 708
Salem- 577
Owensville- 556
So again, how exactly are these schools considered the same class?
because you have to draw a line somewhere...there is no perfect solution. But I don't want it so watered down it isn't really of value!
You add another class, simple. Football has seven classes when you count 8-Man and far fewer schools that participate in the sport, no one thinks it's watered down. Basketball can easily add a class and not be watered down.
which is right where we started in this conversation. I'm fine with one more, just saying in general, where does it stop?
I hate that there are districts that don't have 8 team brackets in it. 4 team districts are silly IMO for basketball.
C5 was added roughly 15 yrs ago, right? Now there’s noise for a sixth. Any idea how many more participating schools there are now than 15 yrs ago?
