5 Classes

[cardsbeatwriter]

A 1.85 size differential in Class 4...STILL. Not quite twice the size...but almost. How about classifications actually based on size? Don't worry about the # of schools.

Have you published a class breakdown using this theory?

 

[carthagefan2006]

It's listed under the About/Member Schools menu on the MSHSAA site

 

[sw5890]

A 1.85 size differential in Class 4...STILL. Not quite twice the size...but almost. How about classifications actually based on size? Don't worry about the # of schools.

Where would you propose breaking the divisions? Are there specific sizes you think do or don't belong together or are you shooting to stay below a certain largest:smallest ratio or a max numerical value difference?

Just curious in such a system how the breaks would be defined.

 

[JNreturns]

Have you published a class breakdown using this theory?

Actually, I thought I did it already. Basically, you have unequal numbers of schools..but you use a differential instead as the guide. Max of 1.45. Some classes have 80, others 45. But you don't walk into a season as a team in the bottom quartile in Class 4, with 690 students playing a school with 1300. Okay for basketball. Not so much for football.

 

[cardsbeatwriter]

So you are okay with some divisions playing more games than others to earn a championship?
And how many divisions does that make?

 

[Missouri Kid]

So you are okay with some divisions playing more games than others to earn a championship?
And how many divisions does that make?

I don't have a dog in this race but I suggest we rephrase your first question and direct it to the participants as follows:
Would you rather participate in a playoff division where you are assured that the enrollment differential (of others in the class) is less even if you have to play more playoff games to win the championship?

I also add that at present some divisions play more playoff games than others to win the state championship. So that, in and of itself, would change nothing.

 

[cardsbeatwriter]

If I understand RNreturns proposal here is an approximate breakdown. I did the math in a car while riding to the airport so cut me a little slack. I don’t think any of the largest teams in the divisions more than 1.45 the size than the smallest.


St. Louis University - 2803
Rockhurst - 2736
Christian Brothers College - 2565
Blue Springs - 2547
Hazelwood West - 2268
Marquette - 2223
Joplin - 2216
Lindbergh - 2060
Blue Springs South - 2041
Lee's Summit West - 2037
DeSmet - 2020
Troy Buchanan - 1993
Hazelwood Central - 1966
Ft. Zumwalt West - 1964
Francis Howell - 1947


Francis Howell Central - 1906
Lee's Summit North - 1904
Northwest - 1901
Raymore-Peculiar - 1900
Eureka - 1885
Park Hill - 1877
Lafayette - 1874
Rock Bridge - 1866
Ritenour - 1832
Lee's Summit - 1823
Seckman - 1814
Kickapoo - 1800
McCluer North - 1790
Fox - 1790
Mehlville - 1794
Kirkwood - 1779
Timberland - 1778
Francis Howell North - 1773
Liberty - 1767
Liberty North - 1764
Parkway South - 1740
Nixa - 1733
Pattonville - 1727
St. Joseph Central - 1703
Holt - 1662
Hickman - 1660
Vianney - 1634
Ozark - 1632
Waynesville -1627
Springfield Central - 1612
Park Hill South -1605
Truman - 1605
Raytown - 1600
Oakville - 1550
Staley - 1525
Jackson - 1523
Fort Osage - 1503
Chaminade - 1502
Poplar Bluff - 1478
North Kansas City - 1476
Lebanon - 1466
Smith-Cotton - 1466
Ruskin - 1454
Oak Park - 1439
Ft. Zumwalt North - 1437
Branson - 1430
William Chrisman - 1425
Hazelwood East - 1391
Republic - 1389
Battle - 1378
Ft. Zumwalt South - 1370
Glendale - 1361
Carthage - 1356
Belton - 1356
Washington - 1351
Webster Groves - 1351
Parkview -1347
Willard - 1324
Rockwood Summit - 1316
Neosho - 1316


Winnetonka - 1314
Ladue - 1301
Camdenton - 1297
Ft. Zumwalt East - 1276
Rolla - 1273
Parkway West - 1270
Parkway Central - 1263
Liberty (Wentzville) - 1251
Capitol City - 1250
Jefferson City - 1250
Parkway North - 1236
Grandview - 1231
Grain Valley - 1192
McCluer - 1178
Kearney - 1178
Webb City - 1177
McDonald County - 1174
Raytown South - 1168
Gateway - 1148
Farmington - 1143
Riverview Gardens - 1141
Hillsboro - 1140
Platte County - 1106
Cape Central - 1100
West Plains - 1092
Hannibal - 1024
Hillcrest - 1016
Westminster Christian - 1012
Carl Junction - 1006
St. Dominic - 999
Van Horn - 997
DeSoto - 961
Sikeston - 957
Warrenton - 956
Windsor - 949
Marshfield - 940
Warrensburg - 931
St. Mary's - 924
Helias Catholic - 916
Pacific - 910
Union - 908


Clayton - 870
Festus - 870
North County - 897
Harrisonville - 884
MICDS - 874
East (Kansas City) - 843
Smithville - 841
University City - 841
St. Charles - 821
Marshall - 818
Bolivar - 804
Excelsior Springs - 791
St. Francis Borgia - 783
Lafayette (St. Joseph) - 783
Benton - 781
Savannah - 780
Nevada - 777
Affton - 773
Priory - 759
Kirksville - 756
St. Clair - 750
Perryville - 744
Moberly - 735
Northeast (Kansas City) - 732
Potosi - 727
Monett - 710
St. Charles West - 710
Jennings - 708
Logan-Rogersville - 700
Center - 696
Lutheran South - 681
Mexico - 675
Confluence Prep Academy - 671
Normandy - 671
Sullivan - 667
Miller Career Academy - 666
Fulton - 655
Oak Grove - 649
Aurora - 639
Pleasant Hill - 639
Ste. Genevieve - 638
Dexter - 633
Reeds Spring - 621
Vashon - 616
Odessa - 615
Central Academy of Excellence - 607
Eldon - 605
Lincoln Prep - 604


Salem - 598
Soldan - 593
Owensville - 591
Cassville - 590
Clinton - 590
Chillicothe - 571
Pembroke Hill - 569
St. Pius X (Kansas City) - 555
John Burroughs - 554
Osage - 551
Cameron - 548
Springfield Catholic - 534
Park Hills Central - 531
Kennett - 526
Roosevelt - 518
Fredericktown - 516
McCluer South-Berkeley - 513
Boonville - 512
Orchard Farm - 504
Missouri Military Academy - 503
Southern Boone - 501
Hollister - 491
Bishop DuBourg - 488
Hogan Prep - 480
Mt. Vernon - 475
Southeast - 474
East Newton - 471
Maryville - 470
St. James - 468
O' Fallon Christian - 465
Lift for Life Academy - 462
Buffalo - 458
New Madrid County Central - 457
Richmond - 457
Bayless - 456
Wright City - 454
Lutheran St. Charles - 453
Seneca - 442
Duchesne - 438
Blair Oaks - 430
Macon - 427
Mountain Grove - 425
Ava - 421
Doniphan - 419
Herculaneum - 418
Cuba - 417
California - 416


O'Hara - 412
Forsyth - 409
Centralia - 403
Willow Springs - 402
Winfield - 400
St. Pius X (Festus) - 396
Holden - 396
Father Tolton - 392
Clopton - 388
Warsaw - 388
Lutheran North - 387
Fair Grove - 386
Lamar - 384
Versailles - 384
Carnahan - 383
Lawson - 381
Houston - 380
Hallsville - 377
Montgomery County - 377
North Callaway - 377
Trinity Catholic - 374
Transportation and Law - 370
Bowling Green - 370
Strafford - 360
Sumner - 356
Principia - 356
Trenton - 354
Palmyra - 353
El Dorado Springs - 351
Cardinal Ritter - 347
East Prairie - 342
Summit Christian Academy - 342
Stockton - 339
Grandview - 332
Kelly - 332
Hermann - 328
Mt. View-Liberty - 327
Clever - 324
Lafayette County - 322
Knob Noster - 318
Caruthersville - 316
Highland - 307
Butler - 300
Brookfield - 298
Lathrop - 297
Malden - 296
Clark County - 294
Jefferson - 292


Cole Camp - 280
Charleston - 273
Carrollton - 273
Lexington - 270
Cleveland NJROTC - 269
St. Paul Lutheran (Concordia) - 265
University Academy Charter - 265
Bishop LeBlond - 262
South Callaway - 262
Diamond - 261
Sherwood - 260
Brentwood - 245
Monroe City - 244
Portageville - 244
South Harrison - 243
East Buchanan - 240
Penney - 239
Cabool - 236
Ash Grove - 234
Mark Twain - 233
Plattsburg - 229
Sarcoxie - 227
Mid-Buchanan - 226
Scott City - 226
Adrian - 224
Tipton - 219
South Shelby - 217
Marionville - 216
St. Vincent - 194
Valle Catholic - 162
Windsor - 214
Putnam County - 213
Hayti - 211
Pleasant Hope - 211
Skyline - 209
Louisiana - 206
North Platte - 206
Milan - 205
Westran - 205
Marceline - 199
Pierce City - 198


Crest Ridge - 195
Thayer - 195
Gallatin - 194
Fayette - 192
Lone Jack - 191
Scotland County - 190
Archie -188
Chaffee - 188
Schuyler County - 188
Miller - 176
Maysville - 174
West Platte - 170
Osceola - 168
Salisbury - 168
Crystal City - 167
Harrisburg - 167
Van-Far - 164
Knox County - 162
Midway - 159
Lincoln - 151
Liberal - 148
Jasper - 144
Lockwood - 144
Polo - 139
Paris - 136
Concordia - 134
Wellington-Napoleon - 134
Rich Hill - 133
Appleton City - 131
Princeton - 127
Santa Fe - 126
Slater - 119
Sweet Springs - 116

 

[cardsbeatwriter]

Seems like a difficult process to bracket those 8 divisions down just to have 6 champions from the same handful of teams as we do now and two new divisions.

Class 8 - Same contenders as in the current class 6

Class 7 - I don’t know if any of the current bottom half class 6 teams compete any better in this division which is pretty much the bottom of class 6 and most of current class 5. Contenders are probably Battle and Staley most years. The biggest division but not sure how the parity would differ from the current class 5.

Class 6 - Is the larger half of the current class 4. WC and Kearney most years.

Class 5 - is the bottom of current class 4 and some current larger class 3’s. If this was to happen Harrisonville would make a run comparible to Lamar’s and would have Bolivar folks lamenting over what could have been.

Class 4 - is basically the current class 3. It would be Maryville and lot of programs with good runs in the past but no consistency.

Class 3 - Lamar still dominates.

Class 2 - Valle still dominates.

Class 1- participation trophy for the tiny schools.

 

[Missouri Kid]

Seems like a difficult process to bracket those 8 divisions down just to have 6 champions from the same handful of teams as we do now and two new divisions.

Class 8 - Same contenders as in the current class 6

Class 7 - I don’t know if any of the current bottom half class 6 teams compete any better in this division which is pretty much the bottom of class 6 and most of current class 5. Contenders are probably Battle and Staley most years. The biggest division but not sure how the parity would differ from the current class 5.

Class 6 - Is the larger half of the current class 4. WC and Kearney most years.

Class 5 - is the bottom of current class 4 and some current larger class 3’s. If this was to happen Harrisonville would make a run comparible to Lamar’s and would have Bolivar folks lamenting over what could have been.

Class 4 - is basically the current class 3. It would be Maryville and lot of programs with good runs in the past but no consistency.

Class 3 - Lamar still dominates.

Class 2 - Valle still dominates.

Class 1- participation trophy for the tiny schools.

i accept your argument for what it represents BUT if you extend that argument to its logical conclusion then there is no reason to have playoffs at all.
Your argument focuses on that handful of programs who are perennial class champions, as if that is the only consideration. My experience, on the other hand, is from a number of programs with no significant post season history and which happened to be at or near the bottom of their class in enrollment numbers. Let me assure you that a district championship was a big deal for the school and community and advancing any step beyond that resulted in unrealistic dreams and unmerited euphoria. Nevertheless, it was great to see and to be a part of and, if memory serves, elimination came at the hands of programs with significantly higher enrollment numbers and significantly higher roster numbers, representing districts with better facilities, more coaches, and more community assets to foster the program.
More succinctly, my point is that those rounds leading to the championship game could be more competitive with smaller enrollment differentials (with full understanding that there will always be a "largest" in class and a "smallest" in class no matter the breakdown). The real question is how significant is enrollment differential to results. The answer: huge. That's why I believe JNr's proposal to ignore even #s in classification in favor of closer enrollment numbers for competition has merit. At least, it has enough merit to make it worthy of discussion and consideration.

 

[Mister_Wizard]

So you are okay with some divisions playing more games than others to earn a championship?
And how many divisions does that make?

If I'm thinking correctly, the 80 team class winner would have only one more game to win than the 40 team class winner. In other words, after only one round the 80 teams are reduced to 40.

And so the 80/40 thing is only different by one extra game, just like the current Class 6 (32 teams) vs Class 4 (64 teams).

Right?

 

[freezeoption]

There are 35 teams that could go 8 man

 

[Gameday5013]

There are 35 teams that could go 8 man

While there may be that many that can go 8-man, most don't want to go that route or need to right now. There are some that do but they're holding on to the tradition of being a 11-man school. 8-man and 11-man have differences, and most coaches and class 1 schools prefer 11-man. There is no need for schools with 150 kids who still get 30-35 kids out for football to go 8-man.

 

[hitch_and_go]

Sometimes enrollment is irrelevant for elite programs as far as participation goes. Lamar has the same amount of players or more than most class 4 schools. Webb has 110 players this year 10-12 . There are very few class 6 schools who have that . Kearney has went from about 35 players in 02 when they became relevant to 85-90 now. My point is ....not matter how you break down the classifications ...the elite programs will rise to the top. When Harrisonville was class 3 ...they went on a terror. They got bumped up and still continued to make deep runs in the playoffs and got a state championship by knocking off Webb and Kearney. Maryville got bumped to class 3. The only thing that changed was the teams they would beat on the way to the dome

 

[Sleepless_in_Jefferson_County]

My experience, on the other hand, is from a number of programs with no significant post season history and which happened to be at or near the bottom of their class in enrollment numbers. Let me assure you that a district championship was a big deal for the school and community and advancing any step beyond that resulted in unrealistic dreams and unmerited euphoria..

So why not go back to a 4 team district? Reward more teams, give more opportunities for success.

Keep the point system, rank them 1-4, and then re-rank again (based on additional points gained in district play) after districts.

 

[freezeoption]

No someone will complain about that. The four team district was my favorite with one team coming out. The way it is now is the second best.

 

[MIZ...ZOU]

Until MSHSAA changes the catch all class on a yearly basis it's not really as equal as it could be.

Make 32 in class 6 if that's what you want?

Leaves 308ish other teams.

64 each and change the catch all yearly.

Making games 4-10 district games with top 4 getting in playoffs would be awesome also.